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Courtesy Of Fackeltraeger Verlag / Courtesy of Fackeltraeger Verlag
Christiane Voelling is a 52-year-old intersexual who lives in Dusseldorf, Germany and has fought for greater rights for people like herself whose sexual gender is indeterminate.
MAINZ, Germany – Pink? Or blue? For most parents this is the paramount question when it comes to organizing a baby shower or choosing a color for a newborn's room.
But, what happens if the exact gender of the child cannot be determined? It is estimated that in Germany alone approximately 80,000 people are intersexual, so-called hermaphrodites, who have physical features – such as chromosomes, hormones, gonads and outer sexual organs – which cannot be unambiguously attributed to just one gender.
Christiane Voelling, 52, is an intersexual.
She is a nurse living in Düsseldorf who was born without defining gender characteristics.
Because German law requires that a newborn's personal data – including gender specification – is registered within a week, Christiane was proclaimed a boy at birth and called Thomas after a midwife supposedly mistook her enlarged clitoris for a penis.
In Voelling's case, it was later diagnosed that her indeterminate external genitalia were the result of a rare genetic disorder of the adrenal gland, the so-called congenital adrenal hyperplasia, or CAH.
"My childhood and teenage development was often agonizing because I did not really know what was wrong with me and where I belonged," Voelling said in a recent interview with NBC News.
Following a push from various human rights groups, Germany‘s government commissioned its National Ethics Council in December 2010 to consider the issue and come up with recommendations on how to identify intersexuals so they could live with greater dignity. The council, which in February of this year released its recommendations, even grappled with the question of whether or not a “third sex” should be introduced.
Invasive surgery
For Voelling, her gender issues were rarely discussed in her family growing up in a small town in a rural area of western Germany since her parents were convinced that they were raising a male child. Yet, in school, she would often be reminded of her ambivalence, when she played soccer with the "other boys," but also felt very much integrated in the girls clique.
She was experiencing an inner conflict that is rather common among intersexuals, or so-called differences of sex development (DSD) affected individuals, experts say.
"By the mid 90s, the first intersexual patients started seeking psychological help at our offices and most of them were preoccupied with feelings of shame, humiliation and a burdening tabooization of their problems," said Dr. Sophinette Becker, a sexologist and psychologist from Frankfurt.
For Voelling, her emotional trauma grew significantly larger at age 18, when physical scars were added in an unnecessary operation.
After being admitted to a local hospital for an appendix surgery, doctors diagnosed that their patient had mixed male-female genitals and an atrophied reproductive system.
But, when the young adult landed on the operating table, the surgeon found a full set of female reproductive organs, including an intact womb and ovaries.
Without consent from the patient, the organs were removed.
"I never received a truthful explanation of my condition and after the operation I felt a lot of physical and emotional pain for many years," Voelling said.
"Some 95 percent of all intersexuals systematically undergo genital surgery and other interventions without medical informed consent and without clear scientific proof," said Lucie Veith, the head of "Intersexuelle Menschen eV" in Hamburg, a group that represents hermaphrodites in Germany.
Gratification after legal battle
Only a couple of years later, Voelling also started receiving the regular administration of testosterone, or steroid male hormones.
"For 27 years, I was more or less exposed to severe doping," Voelling said.
"At age 47, when I felt more like a woman than a man anyway, I said enough is enough," she added.
Today, intersexual activists are trying to educate the medical community, affected families and the public about the often harsh consequences of genital reconstruction surgery and other severe medical interventions.
"These massive medical interferences plunge the intersexed child into total imbalance and lead to irreversible damages," said Veith, whose organization has nearly 600 members in Germany.
In 2008, Voelling decided to take her case to court and sued the doctor that had removed her female reproduction organs over unlawful intervention.
In its verdict, the court ordered the surgeon to pay 100,000 euro, (approximately $133,000) in compensation for performing an operation converting a hermaphrodite into a man without consent.
"I felt very relieved and it was really more of a moral reparation than anything else, but it unfortunately did not have consequences for the legal rights of intersexuals," said Voelling. She officially changed her gender from male to female, as well as her name from Thomas to Christiane, in a long bureaucratic process that same year.
Preparing legal framework
While experts say that Voelling's case is legally unique and will not set a precedent, the topic nevertheless started to receive more public attention after she wrote a book called "I was man and woman – My Life as an Intersexual.“
Despite some disagreements with the recommendations of Germany’s National Ethics Council released last month, Voelling and other intersexuals hope that the council’s recommendations will help give their status a legal framework in the future.
"In our recommendation to the German government earlier this year, the main message was that intersexuals are different from other human beings, but they need to be respected and belong in the center of our society," said psychologist Dr. Michael Wunder, a member of the German National Ethics Council.
Because irreversible medical interventions of gender assignment in people with ambiguous genitalia are typically conducted during early childhood years, the German Ethics Council determined that these operations present an infringement of the right to physical integrity, thus a violation of basic human rights.
The Ethics Board also said that "a non-justifiable encroachment on the personal rights and the right to equal treatment is present when people who cannot be assigned as ‘female’ or ‘male’ because of their physical condition are legally compelled to assign themselves to either category in the civil registry."
Following Australia's example, the German Ethics Council recommended that in addition to the registration of "female" or "male," the German government should introduce the category "other" or should allow a “no entry,” until the affected person have made a personal decision themselves.
Last September, Australia introduced new guidelines, which allow its citizens to change the sex details on their passport to female (F), male (M) or indeterminate (X).
"This amendment makes life easier and significantly reduces the administrative burden for sex and gender diverse people who want a passport that reflects their gender and physical appearance," said Australian Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd.
In Germany, rights activists, representatives from the Ethics Council and intersexuals now hope that German lawmakers will soon implement regulations, which will help to protect the rights of hermaphrodites and remove discrimination on the grounds of gender identity and sexual orientation.
Leave a Comment:
Next--Swazilanders with a pimple on their left butt cheek push for human rights.
So, just what is your point? As it stands your post says much more about your characteristics than anything relevant to the article.
What 'rights' are you compaining about? These people merely want the 'right' to be who and what they are, without being forced into being something different before they reach the age of reason. How does that hurt you in any way?
wtf does THAT mean?
Jeff, Nonsense, and maridanne: Are you prejudiced against people with a pimple on their left butt cheek? Are you zitleftbuttcheek-phobic? Huh?
The problem with your argument is that they're not being denied any rights. In this particular story the stupid doctor violated so many ethical absolutes that he deserved to be sued... and he was... and he lost. I read the whole story and from what I can tell the only obvious infringement upon someone's human rights was the doctor making a decision without Voelling's or her/his parent's consent; and I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact that that's messed up... at least the court didn't. I don't understand what rights they're looking for here unless they classify national recognition that they had a crappy childhood as a right. The Truth has a point, it's becoming absurd. Stop trying to divide everyone into categories, most of us have things we wish we could change and also, most of us have things about ourselves of which we are proud for which society or specific segments of society may look down upon us. We don't need to manufacture new rights that are only applicable to specific people because there are so many differences that it will eventually get freakin confusing. This whole concept is absurd. What rights are they being denied that haven't been successfully litigated?
A lot of VERY ignorant posts on this topic. And idiotic jokes. Comes from that place where the ignorant act out of fear of anything different that them.
Sad.
There was a dude in my neighborhood when I was growing up that started growing breasts when he was around 11. He had always acted kinda soft, so to speak, but he was cool with everyone. I don't know what happened to him, but needless to say, by the time he was 16, it wasn't very pretty how he was treated, by both girls and boys and I'm sorry to say now, but myself included. It wasn't fair nor was it his fault, and now that I'm a older and somehwhat wiser, I can see people for who they are and not what they are now.
Jq. The violation of their human rights is that currently their parents need to put in their birth certificate if they are male or female. This usually dictates how they will be raised. Those people are not mentally confused about their gender. They are born with seroius medical issues that complicate their lives. All they want is not to be branded male or female until they fully develop and decide what is most comfortable for them. They are not flipping from gender to gender because they have nothing better to do. They are born with physical charactaristics of a man and a woman. In this society you need to be one or the other. If you are both you are considered a freak. give them a break. They are just born with a handicapp. Obviously this must happen more then people think if there is such a large group in Germany alone.
Who cares what is on a piece of paper, is it not ultimately the decision of the parents to dictate how the child is raised. If the mom puts a dress on the child is the dad going to pull out the birth certificate and say, "Baby, this seems to indicate that we can't do that; I'm sorry but you're going to need to get HIM a baseball cap and some hotwheels and take off the dress." I'm not saying whether it is or is not a handicap; some of them may find that assertion offensive. But if we accept that premise do we then create a new set of rights for anyone with a handicap taylored specifically for that handicap? And what would that be? Do they get a special parking place? Do they get a special day that celebrates their differences? And I'm still not grasping how the requirement that birth certificates specify whether the child is a male or a female equates to human right violations. I would be more apt to describe it as a minor annoyance. Do they come and arrest you if you put 'not determined'? You better make a decision right now or to the Gulag with you! See, that's absurd. Good Lord people, pull the sticks out of your asses. This is ridiculous.
Oh dear God helps us ! The world is about to end, politicians are stealing our money by the truck loads ! we have a President with questionable back ground and is dooing everything in his power to help this country fail and were worried about of misfits ! If you're born a girl, you're a girl. If your born a boy you're a boy and frankly I don't give a crap about your desires. We should not change and or amend our laws to cater to the misfits to the detrement of all.
Nothing But The Truth, does you Mommy know that you're playing on the computer? If you're going to make jokes...remember jokes are supposed to be funny.
more power to the pimple...gawd ya'lls crazy...
Next conservo-Nazi hateful greedy wasted sperm will combine gun ownership with Viagra rights and form a new political party. Instead a national convention maybe they will get together for a circle jerk roulette competition to choose their leader?
Momus2009,
Thank you for your post. It displays maturity and self-awareness to correct our past wrongs. Somthing that is obviously very rare on newvine and in our public discourse at large.
@JQ said: Stop trying to divide everyone into categories
Agreed, lets get rid the male/female categorization and just have one, human. One bathroom for all humans, one definiton of marriage as being between two humans, if you can do the job you get the job because you are human, etc. /sarc
Not really practical now is it?
What they, the intersexed, are seeking is legal recognition of their gender/sex which is neither 100% male nor 100% female. For many they feel neither male nor female or in the more tragic cases desiginated as the sex that is opposite of their perception of self.
@Paul, either you didn't read the article or you have reading comprehension problems. These people are not "born a girl" or "born a boy." They are born with physical characteristics of both. What they want is the right to chose which set of characteristics they want to live with, not have it arbitrarily chosen for them.
Edited: Excuse me Paul; I just re-read you post and now realize that you're just trolling.
Have a nice day.
Paul-330819, you do realize this article is about hermaphrodites - people born with two sets of organs ambiguous organs, multiple chromosomes, etc. and not transsexuals - people who mentally feel different from their physical gender, right?
So Bob...I suppose you're going to go on about how it's their choice on how they are born?
You need to be nice...especially to those around you.
That's why you don't have many friends.
Paul,
Yours is the most pathetic post so far. You are dead wrong about almost everything you said.
The world is not about to end.
Our Politicians aren't stealing truckloads of money so much as its being handed to them by Lobbyists.
Our President's background is an open book to all but the most intransigent of moronic birthers; Like Donald Trump... now there's a serious character.
The President has done nothing to indicate he is anything other than a loyal, patriotic American and has proven to be one of the most brilliant, honest and hardworking men to ever hold the office.
Yes boys are boys and girls are girls... But the topic of the article is the people who are born with BOTH sets of genitalia and/or hormonal qualities which makes their gender indeterminate. Did you even read it?
If so, you are apparently incapable of comprehending what the article says... otherwise, you might have noticed that OUR (U.S.) laws are not in danger of being subverted by some dastardly cabal of 'misfits,' because the entire scenario takes place in GERMANY... which last time I checked was a foreign country.
You call on your god to help you and in the next breath attack your own country, trash all politicians and the president and then channel all that hate toward some unfortunate fellow humans who by pure accident of birth, endure lifelong suffering and alienation.
You are the misfit.
Paul-330819, you look like a total fool when you comment on an article with words that make it clear that you did not bother to read said article. you can't just get on the commentary about any topic , and then just rant on your own agenda, and hope to maintain a shred pf credibility. fail for you
Ok so when does this endless parade of people (perverts and freaks) desiring special consideration end? Why can't they just be human and live like everyone else without coming forward with special demands for the rest of the world to comply with?
Freaks, Phil? I sure hope you aren't religious, b/c your "god" created those "freaks" and you denigrated his creations. They were born that way; how are you going to blame them for being born with male AND female genitalia?
Actually he isn't blaming them for being born that way. He is blaming them for requesting special privileges that everyone else is not able to obtain.
@Just an Observation
I've never heard the term intersexed but ok. If an individual intersexual wishes to be called by something other than male or female then fine, I see no problem with that. That being said, what if there are those intersexed who do not want to be categorized under whatever term they come up with? What if one feels isolated due to being labeled in such a way? What if in the future they become vindictive over the fact that someone similar to them came along and forced their opinion on them, claimed to be representative of their feelings and as a result their birth certificate says intersexed or whatever rather than male or female? What if they feel isolated due to this?Also, would this not be tantamount to the confiscation of a parent's right to choose how they wish to raise their child. Due to a few stories like the one in this article about people who feel a specific way you're going to assume everyone in their situation feels the same way? This isn't a crusade for human rights. This is a crusade for the transfer of parental rights from that of the parents to that of a community of people who wish to impose their beliefs on everyone. So when people like The Truth make a joke about how ridiculous all of this has become it is because we have to in order to keep from going insane. Everyone wants special treatment and everyone wants to get into everyone else's business. It really is growing increasingly absurd.
Oh and everyone is jumping on Paul but clearly Kenny is either insane or a bit dim and it should be noted.
Without responding to the trolls who are so apparent here, I will just say that I never thought all this much about this issue until a few years ago I met a big, strong truck driver with a full beard, but with breasts and wearing a dress. This was remarkable enough that I asked a fellow driver, who was very sympathetic. This man explained to me that his friend had been born to a very affluent family with a full compliment of both sex organs. The father, who was as manipulative and controlling as he was rich, was in total denial of the femmine parts and always insisted that his "son" was just fine, despite all of the evidence to the contrary. When the young person was much older but still a minor, the father arranged for what was essentially sex-reassignment surgery to remove all of the female parts, the ones with which she identified, and she was given, again at daddy's insistence, male-hormone treatments. Of course she blamed her father for ruining her life, and tried to live as a woman, except for the beard. Never got a satisfactory explanation about that part.
Let these people be whoever they are. Better than forcing them into molds where they may not fit.
JQ ... a lot of "What if's" that were either directly addressed in my post or in others.
What If
#1) They can be categorized how ever the identify male, female, or intersexed
#2) Labeling would be based on self-identity not placed upon them by someone else
#3) Once again no one is forcing them into an inter-sexed label rather they would be able to choose what is best for themselves.
However, their birth certificate should say something other than male or female because it is too early to determine which if either they will identify as.
I prefer the term "nuetral" over "other" or "intersexed" being on the bc. Just seems less polarizing to me. How would you feel if your birth certificated listed a sex other than how you percieve yourself?
But hey, intersexed, other, nuetral, it really only matters to the people directly involved and for some reason to those who have to mold the world into a nice little black and white, either or constraint with no room left for grey less they sensibilities be offended.
#4) A repeat of What if #2
It is much more than a few stories. Unfortunately the populace as a whole typically is unaware of how common this occurance is and how often the wrong gender/sex choice is made by parents and/or doctors leading to emotional turmoil for these people who had no say in what they were made into.
I have made no assumptions. I have had an intersexed friend. How about you?
No this is an attempt to prevent doctors and/or parents making gender assignment decisions for an inter-sexed child for whom they have no idea what the self-identification will be in the future. This is to prevent gender mistakes and not force those who may feel otherwise into a constraining male or female identity.
This is not a grab at parental rights rather a protection of the rights of the individual who has no say and cannot say what they are, yet.
The world needs to wake up. There is more than just male and female possibilities at birth and just because a child is not male or female does not mean the child needs to be made into one or the other.
(FYI - there are species of animals that have three distinct sexes not just two)
Dang thats messed up. :(
In a study here in the U.S. which I saw on a PBS program a couple of years ago (within the last 3.5 years). It presented the idea of a scientist that "gender" was based on nuturing and up bringing. I believe it was in the late 50's or early 60's that this study took place.
One case talked about twin boys, one however had a bad circumcision and his p e n i s became infected and they suggest that the entire male reproductive system be removed and he be rased a girl, which he was, and this scientist/phsyciatrist told the former boy's parents that by their nurturing him as a girl all would be fine.
However this was not the case and the former boy did not understand why she was different when she felt more boy then girl. Well the study eventually failed. The former boy twin eventually learned she used to be a boy. So she then decided she should live as male as she was originally born and is now living as male instead of this forced gender female.
I say this because though born with both male and female reporductive systems it should be the person's right to choose at 18 which they are, they will know for sure by then if not before which gender is dominate in them.
I agree with you
Why choose at all at any age? Why do people want to put them in a box, make them pick a gender? They are neither (or both)!
All they want is the right to be who GOD made them, inter-sexed persons!
And before anyone talks genetics, many are something other than xx or xy
What is an XXY or an XXX? Or what about an XY that has female genitalia but produces male levels of testosterone?
Our brains are very sensitive to hormone levels both inside and outside the womb. Too much or to little of a hormone at the right time will cause a permanent change in the brain that later adjustments in hormones might not reverse.
Get out of the old way of thinking and see the damage done to someone being forced to live as a gender they do not identify with and probably never will
I suppose we can be happy that we have progressed as a species to the point that we don't throw these infants into a river or leave them to die in a forest as our ancestors surely did in centuries past. Overcoming fear and ignorance is still, however, a major goal for many humans.
God is nothing more than a psychological tool based on transference and association with a dead patriarchal tribal elder to assume the dead alpha's power and wealth. There used to be many gods and each tribe had their own religious beliefs. Then a sect of greedy Jews combined religion, government and money to dominate other Jews. This infinitely greedy patriarchal ZioNazi method worked so well that non-Jewish royal families interbred with these arrogant sadistic bankster Jews to dominate nations and planet to enslave us to their gog and magog monetary system slavery. Yes if you were not "normal" from birth they would do evil things to you and say you did something wrong and god is punishing you. Maybe in nature it is ancient self reproduction coming out? But in the human social psychological place of mind and of the world it is the ones who judge others in a mean and hateful manner that should go fork themselves.
no doubt.
sounds to me like years of inbreeding. Hitler attempting to develop the "superior race."
Kenny Driessen - OK, we get it. You're an anti-Semitic atheist with a severe social disorder. Now that that's established, let's all move on.
What would you call a third gender designation? "Other" seems a bit rude.
Well, that's going to be another battle here in the US, conservatives don't even like to talk about these cases.
AG99, someone somewhere in this discussion suggested that maybe gender designations are not necessary at all. A person my be apparently male or aparently female or would be described without reference to gender. In terms of photo ID, the photo speaks for itself. I don't think in a medical emergency the medics or ER docs would look for ID and rely on the gender specified therein for making decisions about your care. Apart from marriage, and not even then in some states, I can't think of any circumstance where it would be necessary to designate a gender. What do you think?
Wow, I just had a scary thought. This was in Germany. What if Hitler and his minions thought about these people during the "cleansing"? It did cause the gays in germany to go deep under ground. And most Blacks were so scared, they turned white as a ghost. So much for the pure race.
Michelle: Gender is more than skin deep; it's part of who we are as people. There have been a few times in my life when I couldn't identify the gender of the person I was talking to and it made me uncomfortable because I didn't know how to treat them. I don't address women the same way I do men.
It may not be PC to say so, but men and women are different. It's no good pretending otherwise. How that applies to this situation I have no idea, but I'm not ready to abandon the idea of gender because a few people are ambiguous.
EEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWW !!!!!
one of the poster children for the nurture theory was raised as a girl, ultimately committed suicide. there is a growing move to allow kids to grow up without having their organs tampered with before they can decide. but why do these "one woman-one man" cons never acknowledge this aspect of nature? (which has nothing to do with German inbreeding, it occurs everywhere)
Sadly, the twin you refer to from the PBS program committed suicide. The psychologist did his study for money. Greed...
Shocking!! You mean that he did his job ... for the same reason for which I do mine?
Supercram: So the Bank of International Settlements financed Hitler because that was good for the Jews in your view and I'm anti-Semitic? Much of the gold that Hitler pillaged including the gold fillings from Holocaust victim's teeth ended up in a gog magog Jewish bankster cult accounts and that is fact. Check out the Haavara Agreement between Hitler and the Zionists. We are taught that it is our "white" fault that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust but nobody mentions the 3 million Polish Catholics. Nobody mentions that between 50 and 80 million people died as a result of the war that certain Jewish Zionist bankers and war profiteers made a killing on. They made so much money that they could not afford to give a damb about their poorer Jewish working class brothers and sisters. You are welcome to all the ad hominem attacks against me you can come up with. You have proven yourself to be the real anti-Semitic, the real anti-humane defender of the Synogouge of Satan (rev 2:9). Have a nice day.
It must be terrible NOT o now who and what you are.
I hope this group of people win their case!
It must be even worse to have other people decide for you while you're under general anesthesia.
I am having a hard time understanding how determining yourself of "indeterminate" gender helps? I would think that would cause more difficulties when travelling.
No doubt, a DNA test could determine which is the dominate gender, then when the person is 18 or older, he/she could decide whether to have surgery to accomodate that test or not. If the DNA test is done in the first month or so oif life, perhaps the children would be raised more in tune with how they themselves feel.
You presume from a false conception, there is no dominant gender. To even render a guess prior to the onset of sexual maturity is the moral medical equivalent of eugenic sterilization as it happened here in the US a few decades back.
These people are who they are. Who it is they eventually become is a matter that should be left entirely to them. When civilization at large is left to decide the fate of persons of differing genetic make up, be it psychological, physical, genetic, racial or whatever, the results are more often tragic than not.
Society needs to learn how not to play God with the lives of people who aren't molded in the image of their preconceptions...
somebefuddledperson- In many cases, intersex individuals are neither XX nor XY, so a DNA test doesn't fit either of these two common categories.
As is common, human culture is far behind human science in recognizing this condition.
Who they are is not the problem, it's that they are pressured to be something they are not. If we could embrace the full range of gender diversity in humans, that would represent progress.
Well if they don't want to have their gender assigned then they should have a third option for the birth certificate and they definitely should not have any procedures to set thier sex before they are old enough to decide for themselves.
How difficult not knowing who you are sexually, and, yes, these people need to be allowed to choose for themselves when they're old enough to do so. My worry is that when one's sex is so clearly identified on one's ID, such as driver's license, someone designated as 'X' may be subject to harassment by overzealous police, neighborhood watchmen, and other bigoted individuals. When I look at the news, intolerance is all too prevalent in our society at least.
Incredible progress (that we should already have attained)!
When trying to get your passport I can see it now............When asked "male or female"......."Yes".
somebefuddledperson--no, it doesn't work that way. Some women who appear to be female in every way--and will tell you that they are female--have XY chromosomes (male DNA). People who are intersexed can quite literally have a mixed DNA of XXY. Some males have XXX.
An intersexed person can be of literally indeterminate sexuality--they may strongly identify with one gender or the other, or they may identify with both. There was one "bearded lady" who has entirely male musculature, was born with both male and female genitalia, but she also had a baby when she was an adult.
It interests me to see how the conservative fundamentalist evangelical Christian crowd, which likes to use the phrase "God doesn't make mistakes," in response to homosexuals trying to explain that they are born with a tendency towards homosexuality (it appears to be in the amygdala--though biology isn't destiny, and not all people born with the tendency will express it). What about people who are "intersexed"--is that a "mistake," or is it "God's will," and what should one do about it?
The truth is that we aren't all born "Crest kids"--with typical genitalia, clear gender differentiation, and sexual orientation that pleases the CFEC crowd. All fetuses start out as female--the process of differentiating into male/female is sometimes as frought with complications as the splitting of one egg into two (creating identical twins--sometimes--and occasionally producing conjoined twins or just fetuses with multiple limbs and organs and a head and a half and stillborn). The process of gender differentiation and sexual orientation in fetuses doesn't always proceed in the "usual way." And, that's just a fact.
I'm glad to see people who are intersexed come out of the closet, as it were. It helps very much that the facts are no longer being obscured and that those who like to think that little babies are born very simply--girl/pink and boy/blue--have to deal with the reality of ambiguity.
I think that babies born intersexed should be marked down as X--and then if they want to identify M or F when they are old enough, they can. If they want to have sex assignment surgery, they can. If they feel like just remaining X, then they should be able to do that too. Gender identity is only malleable to a small degree--just as sexual orientation is--a lot of that is hard wired, and it's time to let people decide for themselves rather than having MDs play god.
There are four ways to determine sex - interior, exterior, gonads and genetics. If a child is ambiguous or whatever - say, a female with an enlarged clit or a male with a small penis - they can do certainly one other test to see what the issue is. If the child is XX or XY, then go with that gender. A person with an enlarged clit and normal levels of hormones will likely grow up to identify as a girl. A boy with a small penis, if he is genetically XY, will likely grow up to identify as a boy.
Raising someone who has ambiguous exterior genitalia in their genetic gender will probably lead to the same number of people growing up that want to be the other sex as children who have definite sex organs and are raised that way.
The problems occur when you have someone who is XXY or XXX, who has a chemical imbalance (which can be fixed with medication) or some other issues that, yes, arise when our bodies change from female to male, or develop further along the female system.
What if the religious right said: "You're absolutely correct, we shouldn't play god, so no more abortions just because you don't want to have a Down's baby or are inconvenienced by pregnancy that was unwanted even when that child would be perfectly healthy if allowed to live."
after the word SEX...I print....YES
& my husband always laughs...
even after 32 years of marriage & the same old word printed on stupid forms !
I wish these good people every success in bringing some common sense to this planet...
@beanathome
Letting people choose for themselves as to what sex they want to be catagorized as sounds great in theory, the problem is that most of society doesn't function at that level of tolerance, let alone accepting people. Especially children. Any parent who chooses, or doesn't choose for their baby to be of a certain sex is probably making the most difficult decision they have ever had to. Being a parent is scary!
Also, remind me never to have my appendix removed in Germany, in case they decide to remove my uterus for me.
Bigdeal -
its NOT the parents choice. For crying out loud! How many times do we have to say it? Lots of us are born with things that make us stand out. Telling a parent to 'choose' a gender for their intersex child just so they can avoid bullying is setting that child up for a lifetime of misery!
The RIGHT thing to do is to simply prepare your child for the bullying. Support them, be with them, and ensure that they can maintain their own will in the face of others. We've all been bullied for something. Changing yourself on account of THEM is like giving in to terrorists. It's a terrible, defeatist attitude to take.
Also, as a mtf transexual, this issue is near and dear to me. I will always fight for my intersex brothers/sisters/androgyne's.
I think the United States should try and take this path as well, to stop straying behind the path of democracy and equality.
At least they won't have as much problem getting married; after all two hermaphrodites can be different opposite sexes any day of the week. :-)
Brings a whole new dimension to masturbation, too.
It kinda doesn't always work that way. Many people think that ALL hermaphrodites have a fully developed set of both male and female organs, which is false. There are differing degrees to which hermaphroditism expresses itself.
Sure why not, lets give rights to Lions and Tigers and Bears while we're at it too, oh my....
They already have them. PETA is working for them to be represented in Congress.
Sure why not, lets give rights to Lions and Tigers and Bears while we're at it too, oh my....
?????? What are you really saying?
CA, these are human beings, not animals.
all people should have the same rights...regardless of race, sex or national origin...
At least they won't have as much problem getting married; after all two hermaphrodites can be different opposite sexes any day of the week.
No. I'm sure some whacked out evangelical preacher will figure out which verse in Leviticus allows him to denounce these people as abominations to try to prevent them from being able to marry.
O! O!
Collapsed!! what's up with you people that was funny as hell and also quite true. Loosen up will ya!
Must have been some evangelist without a sense of humor, wait a minute, none of them have a sense of humor. Duh!
Seems to me that yes, something should be done, but I can see where this could possibly cause problems for law enforcement personnel. Visual identification is tied so closely to perceived gender that police, firemen, and other first responders might have trouble making official identification of alleged victims and perpetrators.
That's where education of responders comes in. An easy solution once society recognizes the issue.
If an individual is victimized either through crime, fire, some natural catastrophe or whatever else, what the hell difference does it make which gender(s) they are? I doubt a loved one is going to identify their body on the basis of their genitalia. You guys are trying to fabricate an issue which does nothing but further divide people into categories.
Thanks BW. And JQ, I wasn't creating an issue. I stated I agreed that the problem needed to be addressed in way that is equitable and fair. However, I was thinking about different scenarios where this issue could cause difficulty with society's current protocols. Police response is often, "We're looking for the victim. The bartender who saw the ID said the person was a [male/female] of approximately 24 years of age..." and so on. How would it be helpful to know "The kidnapped person is a 'neither' who sometimes dresses as male and sometimes as female." Common identifiers are absent, and as BW said, responders will need to be educated to come up with descriptions that are not so gender specific.
Lisa...
I cannot imagine why gender would ever be an issue for law enforcement...except for lock up
so if my wallet was missing...& I refused to speak....or tick off a box on a form...they'd probably find an excuse to strip search me....voila....problem solved...
These people certainly deserve the respect anyone else is entitled to. "Both" might be a better term as often that is how it appears. They should definitely not get sexual assignment without their consent, especially surgery that deprives them of a very personal choice that only they can make. Doctors have no right to mutilate a person based on their own perceived "better judgement".
$133,000 is p-nuts for what this woman endured. The compensation should have been a few million. But no amount of money would compensate her for the injustice done to her. The doctor played God, a no no in the medical profession.
I knew an intersexed woman from Germany. She had come to this country to visit an uncle in the 1990's. Her story was similar: ostracized and mistreated by her family; misunderstood by friends, with no close friends. We humans can be so cruel simply because of the way someone is born.
Still trying to figure out how a perfect god can make mistakes.
Why is this automatically considered a mistake???
If your response is "well look how tough life is for her" you could say the same thing about say Hellen Keller. But look at what her life has done, she has inspired many. Ex "malo" bonum.
God does not make mistakes, only people who presume to know God's will.
@Notfiveo.....and of course the militant fundamentalist conversionist Atheists have to chime in. Look, you don’t believe in a supreme deity, so quit trying to figure it out. You don’t get it, and you never will get it. Just wear your Free Thinker t-shirt (ironic since you’re not open to any other belief/non-belief but your own) and those of us who do practice monotheistic faiths (Christians aren’t the only ones who worship a God, although you seem to hate them the most) will steer clear.
It is obvious that some people are so blinded by faith that they can even re-define the definition of perfect.
In a paradigm in which God exists and were the creator of the universe, God would be de facto perfect. God doesn't exist in the paradigm of your belief system, so your assertion doesn't really make sense. Let's not forget that atheists believe, too, so your definition of perfect is also influenced by your belief, as well.
(I assumed that Notfiveo is an atheist, of course.)
My definition of perfect is influenced by Webster.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perfect
Neither you atheists or theists have the right to define intersexed people as a "mistake".
OK Mr. religious, how do you classify their sexual orientation? No matter who they date, in the churches eyes they would be gay. Saw a story tonight on 20/20 about PERFECT young schizophrenic children who want to harm their families, but I am sure believers think they are possessed by the devil. ROTFLMAO.
Google Eugenetics if you want these answers. It was a bogus science based in religious persecution. It will shock you to learn how far it was allowed to progres until basic common sense stepped in, but not before the NAZIs took the science as the basis for the Superior Race Theory. The State of Virginia was sued by some of the survivors that had been forced to have been neutered.
Seriously???
Is this really a story that needed to be told?
Yes it is, Just like Gay Rights. There are numerous other groups that need to be seeking the same thing and sure they will.
absolutely! the tragic lives these people sometimes live through no fault of their own is heartbreaking. it's another form of discrimination and resulting pain that can be alleviated with just a bit of human understanding from the rest of us who were blessed to have more clear gender identities.
imagine having your sex organs removed by a surgeon who made a snap decision on the operating table without consulting you or your family? if her predominant biological identity had been clear from birth (and a simple ultrasound today could have done it) a more suitable gender path could have been provided and the radar of her parents could have been turned on to look for the need to revisit the issue when puberty came along.
your question big (i think little) seems to say these humans need to be consigned to the dust bin of second class citizens. sad.
just another group of berry voters
Common mistake that I tire of seeing : SEX = Biology; GENDER = Cultural definition ("how you ACT"). Sex refers to the question "are you male or female"? Gender refers to the question "are you masculine or feminine?". If you are talking about genitalia, you are talking about biological sex! For example you can have male genitalia (sex) and dress/walk/talk/act feminine (gender). And if you can't tell what the genitalia/chromosones/etc. "are" (male/female) you are talking about difficulty ascertaining an individual's SEX. I wish these reporters, legistlators and everyone else would stop confusing the two terms!
Oh come now. You know the reason they purposefully confuse the two is because SEX is a bad word to use. They use GENDER instead of sex because it won't offend so many delicate ears.
*Applause!*
Exactly so! Gender is not as simple as what equipment and chromosomes you have or what your parents would prefer you act like. Serious harm has been caused to innocent people because of others not understanding just how complex gender is. There is:
Gender Identity- Do you feel, think, male or female or even a little of both in your inner-self consciousness
Gender Biology- Do you have XX, XY or a combination of both, do you have penis, vagina, testes, ovaries, or a combination of both or none at all.
Gender Role- Do you identify more with and feel more fulfilled by the gender role (in your particular culture) of men or women or a little of both?
Gender Attraction- Are you sexually attracted to men or women or both?
All four factors are indiscriminate and interplay with one another to form any combination. And when we only recognize two distinct narrow moulds we leave out a wide cross-section of the population.
In addition, one's own orientation is considered to be "what's between the ears"! So, as a human race slowly progressing towards acceptance of our natural diversity, we must also include orientation when trying to understand our differences.
So, hypothetically speaking, a person could be born with predominately male sex organs, have an intersexed chromosomal type, be engendered as a woman, and have a sexual orientation for other women as well. In short, you could have any possible combination of these characteristics!
The important thing to remember is that we are all equally human, regardless of how God made us....
Sheesh. Sunshine Girl beat me to it.......and stated it much more succinctly! Kudos!
Actually Gender by definition is as simple as equipment. Of course I'm sure there are people that want to redefine that as much as they do the term marriage. Being a hermaphrodite has no bearing on someone who has fully functional and healthy equipment being male or female.
If a person has all the boy parts of a boy and they are fully functional and healthy yet the individual feels like they are a girl or something... This is not a physical problem... it's a mental one and possibly an emotional one. I'm sorry they feel something they aren't.
I'm sure these comments will be bashed shamed, collapsed etc... but don't worry I feel no need to argue with you. It is just how it is.
Mental and emotional problems all have a physiological basis anyway. So you cannot just dismiss it as easily. There are hormonal and bio-chemical influencers at play.
Nature favors DIVERSITY in everything.
It will never make just one or two versions of something, it has been designed or "evolved" if some prefer, to always put a few variances in the mix, JUST IN CASE. Because the goal of life is to ensure LIFE SURVIVES through adaptation to any possible environment.
We may not understand why gender is so complex yet, but perhaps much later in the future we just might thank our lucky stars that not EVERYONE fit into the same mould, that there were people with variances in their brain, endochrine system, chromosomes and physiology.
I'm a transexual. I don't feel like I have something wrong with my mind, I feel like I have something wrong with my body.
I'm sick of people like Steve trying to constantly over simplify things so they can fit the world into their narrow narrow view of things.
My Mind defines who I am, not my body. If I was born with the mind/spirit of a girl, then regardless of my body, that is who I should aspire to be.
Not all of us are born in the body we want to be in. Just the other day I saw some poor guy, his arms and legs were tiny twisted stumps, his face wasn't much better. He was clearly mentally retarded as well, twitching around in a adult sized child stroller pushed a long by his family. It reminded me how lucky I am that, even if my mind and body don't match up, at least I can ~function~.
So quit trying to make a veiled implication that I somehow have something wrong with my mind. ESPECIALLY when you know nothing and have no experience with the topic!
If there are 80000 in germany alone, there must be some in the United States too but this is something no one talks about. I wonder what happens here?
Maybe society is too busy bashing gays/lesbians to be informed about intersexual issues. Must be so self-gratifying being a bigot.
Melba, I read an article about this years ago that said that infants of indeterminate sex are typically subjected to sex assignment surgery. The sex selected is often based on how active the infant is; more active = boy, less active = girl.
there was an eye opening program on pbs a few years back on the issue.
the amount of ignorance displayed in the comments here indicates it needs to be rerun. on lifetime, the learning channel, cbsnbcabcfox, own and hell, even on espn. perhaps especially in espn.
As Michelle noted, in this country, most children born with ambiguous genitalia are usually "assigned" a sex at or shortly after birth. The infants are surgically "corrected" very early on. Parents generally believe they are doing the right thing - saving the child from the inevitable teasing that they will get growing up, etc. The problem is, most of these kids end up having serious problems later in life with identity confusion, feelings of resentment and distrust, hormone therapies that may or may not be welcome. Some children never feel "right" in the gender they were assigned and others may feel betrayed when the find out what was done to them, even if they have been comfortable with how they were raised. Given our dichotomous, rigid cultural definitions of gender, these kids are in for a hard road that remains largly hidden from the rest of the world due to cultural taboos, shame and fear.
There is also a very high percentage of these individulas that later chose to Reassign their sex because while their parents chose one sex for them...during puberty, they emotionally developed or aligned themselves more with the other....sometimes these poor folks never even get told and are wondering "why do I feel like a boy when I'm a girl".
In the US, until recently surgery was performed almost immediately after birth to try to make the child resemble whatever gender the doctor thought it was closest to. This decision was mostly based on the crudest standard, penis size. Often the parents weren't even asked to give permission for the surgery, and sometimes weren't even informed about it. Hindsight has shown this to be the wrong approach to take.
Current medical practice is varied, but primarily leaves the issue of surgery until later, when the wishes of the intersex person can be taken into account. The change in medical practice is too recent to be able to fully evaluate how well it meets the needs of these individuals, but it seems to be far better than the previous method.
Just another example of doctors thinking they are Medical Deities. Unfortunately, most people are so ignorant about this issue (I certainly am), that it's all too easy to follow a doctor's "recommendation." This issue deserve a lot more publicity in the U.S. Unfortunately, at the same time this may become yet another group some feel compelled to hate and discriminate against.
Thank you for your informative replies and BW-267706 just being uneducated about something like this doesn't make a person a bigot. I honestly didn't know, and I am sure I am not the only one out there.
Gender identity is a brain thing, not a penis-size thing. So it's absolutely foolish for parents or surgeons to make a decision at birth, before they can possibly know which gender identity the child has. Far better to wait to see how the individual identifies, and to delay puberty if necessary.
I don't know. America is a hot bed for bigotry. Just look at the comments on here! To be born a intersexual makes you a mistfit to some people apparently. I need to stop getting on here. All it does is make me depressed I share genetics with some of these people. If they raise concerns here in the states I'd simply support them like I do with women, minorities, and gays. Too many people think you should just know your place and stay silent.
Sad but true, but given history I don't think we have any edge over the Germans in this area.
WOW! Will bigotry ever die? Some people can't cope with anyone different than themselves.
World history has shone that pretty much every civilization has viewed anyone that is different from them as savages. Bigotry appears to be a human condition, or perhaps a social one.
Bigotry is a social disease that is essentially taught to the newer generations. While it is an intrinsic human reactive trait to fear or distrust those we deem different, hatred and bigotry are taught as an accepted practice. It is only through education and acknowledgement that we will, as a human race, overcome our frailties and accept our natural diversity in the context of benevolent humanity.
shown
This issue is a lot more complex than I used to think. Anyone know some further sources for study?
It's Pat! For more info: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lit1cSptJw
lol, i forgot about pat. made you think, laugh and wasn't mean spirited.
MSN doesn't allow hyperlinks, unfortunately.
//aebrain.
blogspot.
com
/p
/reference-works-on-transsexual-and.
html
Sources on the science of Intersex (including Transsexuality - a form of Intersex)
A good set of presentations for a lay audience is by Professor of Biology Veronica Drantz:
Zoe, FYI, a person who has been a member as long as you have CAN post links to Newsvine, unless you've been blocked from doing so, and I doubt that you have, so please try it the next time you think you've got a good link to something pertinent.
Pray.
I agree, I have 3 wives but insurance will only cover 1.
MAN O MAN! Some people are the targets of so much injustice! jeSus!
The agony that this person has endured and must still face is indescribable. My prayer is that she will find peace and any more injustices that were done to her and others will be set to right.
Peace and God's blessings to all this day
In today's world, it's better to be abnormal than normal.
Every comment that disagrees with this silly article has been collapsed.
and the honest and good comments have been deleted!!
"Disagrees" with this article? What? You're disagreeing with the fact that these people exist? Every comment has been collapsed because it's been moronic, juvenile and ignorant. I'm sick of people who hit out like children when they are faced with something they don't understand, then moan when others point out their idiocy and ignorance.
This article was of an expository, not an editorial nature. It does not invoke agreement or disagreement.
It does if you are narrow-minded, ignorant, and "realize" that everyone could be just as wonderful as you if only they put their minds to it.
IF everyone were a hermaphrodite we'd still have a probllem! IS IT HIM or HERmaphrodite! jeSus!
No, DA, then it wouldn't be a category.
Some of your comments are shameful. I can't believe that in this day and age some people will still go out of there way to hate anyone labeled as "different". The fact that some of you took time to post snarky, rude, hateful comments is appalling. One day I hope you find yourselves in a "minority group" having your rights trampled. Then, you'll be the ones turning to other kindhearted people for help.
Amen!
I AM in a hated group! ... white male over 50!!!
You could have stopped at while male.