Interesting that Palestinians hold the same view about Israel....it doesn't exist either....aperfect recipe for peacr, neither of you exist.

lol @ tuoeisne "the Berlin wall was not put up to save the lives of Jewish children from the hands of Arab murderers" neither was the Israeli wall, it was put up to further the cause of stealing all of the Palestinians land, furthermore, Gaza wasnt ethnically cleansed of Jews, Gaza is where the Jews put all the Arabs they "cleansed" out of Israel.

newscover

a completely ignorant slur has no place anywhere. You and your comments are not welcome here or anyplace else.

Reported, hopefully banned for life. Equivalent of the "n" word for me...

You'd think the Israelis would learn from the mistakes of what their chief benefactor, the Americans, did to the Indians. It was a shameful period of American history. In 100 years Israel will be viewed the same way. Only there are a heck of alot more Arabs than Indians...and Israel isn't going to be able to kill most of them like the Americans did. It's only a matter of time before Israel has to come to its senses and seek peace with its neighbors. Except for the Americans, they are isolated in the world. The arrogant, facist government of Israel will eventually do something that will even turn Americans against them. Besides the Americans are broke and can't afford the luxury of Israel...$3 billion/year! With friends like Israel who needs enemies.

Israel's learned a great deal from the Americans experience with Native Americans, where do you think they got their playbook? once you've decimated a people and taken their land its done, and not to be undone, Israel is following that course as quickly as they possibly can because they know that once they've stolen all the Palestinians land, made life unbearable for them, killed them, terrorized them and forced them to leave, that all that will be left is an Israel full of light-skinned Jews, and a token Palestinian population left to live off a government pittance and complain that the history books dont include their story, we're just watching it from the middle, Israel has their eyes on the end of the story, and with American funding and backing they seemed poised to make it a reality.

That part of the world is cursed with history. The vast majority of people just want to be safe and left alone. To that end they will turn a blind eye to almost anything that is "out of sight". Crass and brutal leaders will make sure that no such comfort is reached to further their personal ambitions and leverage history to their political gain. Perpetuating the feud is the trump card to gain "legitimacy" over your rival. Nothing has worked in this region so far. I doubt the wall is going to do any better. I guess they are desperate enough to try.

People like Franko relaxo and hadenough-345906 just can't wait to rewrite history and show how bigoted they are. It is so stupid of them to distort the true facts that there was never, never a palestinian state there. It is no wonder that that morons like them incite simple minded people to react in acts of violence against our friends and allies.

wow august, a racist anecdote, profound, i think you may have single handedly ended the conflict with this little gem (did i say turd?) of wisdom. id respond to onedumbcookie1 but there wasnt really anything coherent in what you said.

Leave it to small-minded "educated" Americans to decide who and who is not a nationality.

Nvm, we left that up to the British after WWII. lawl

another gem august, its amazing you are able to understand and empathize so fully with the Israelis' discomfort but yet care nothing for the Palestinians that are killed, imprisoned and brutalized with impunity by your godly Israelis

And you, Franko, seem very to quick to be against the Israelis and for the Palestian cause. How are you any different? (Well, you are more likely to throw insults - but how otherwise?)

We probably shouldnt bring up all of the rocket and mortar fire that, in part, brought about the building of this wall, should we?

im aware that Palestinian terrorists have killed dozens of Israelis, just as im aware that the Israeli military has killed thousands of Palestinians

A Palestinian child begging for his father ("Baba" in Arabic).

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/08/what-zionism-has-wrought.html

Franko, tt's been far more than dozens of Israelis over the years. Regardless, there has been plenty of suffering to go around. The problem is what answer do you have to end it? Wars have created a cycle of mistrust that is difficult to overcome. Israel will not make a deal that goes so far as to destroy itself. Anything short of that seems unacceptable to the Palestinian side. What would you propose?

i would propose that the Israelis stop referring to anything other than total control as their own destruction, i am 0% pro suicide bomber, but the bombings and the rocket attacks by the Palestinians are the inappropriate acts of a desperate people, the occupation is a brutal, evil, horrible injustice on them that is also 0% justifiable, the Israelis need to stop pretending that their every evil is justified as they grab more Pals land and further push them into third world status by the day. there is most definitely guilt on both sides, and most definitely Palestinians who would like to see the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews, but you need only look at the posters here to know that there are many who believe that there's "no such thing as a Palestinian" and that Israel has the right to, should, and will take every square inch of their land, ive also seen many a post on this board, cheering the death of Palestinians (yes even children). This false narrative of yours that Israel is the good guys, just desperately trying to have peace with an evil people is ridiculous, the Israelis occupy the Palestinians, not the other way around. despite what the propagandists would have you believe Israel is not constantly going to the table and offering up sweet deals to the Pals, its the Israelis who keep souring them at the last minute, its not about security, its about land and water. The Israelis are painting themselves into the corner of apartheid, you can deny it but reality can not, they need to make a real effort to negotiate, that means no more "well, of course they cant have their capital back, its ours now cause god gave it to us, and of course they cant have their land in the west bank back, we need it for security, and of course they cant have autonomy, they're a bunch of dirty Arab terrorists and so forth". if you really do want peace try for me for just one second to pretend that its the Jews who live like the Pals and the Pals who have all the control, the best land, the big military and who kill and imprison Jews by the thousands, and try to honestly tell me that you'd find that acceptable. they are not equal, Israel can sit on its hands for decades more complaining that the Pals arent doing enough for peace because they live in wealth and comfort while the Pals see every attempt to live as civilized humans dismantled by Israeli bulldozers, history will judge this correctly even if the people here can't. the days of cowboys and indians are over, and the simple truth is that Israel will never have peace on land its stolen, their path to peace is sacrifice, which is the one thing they're unwilling to do.

I see things differently than those in that region, but I have the blessing of security living in America. I do not agree with many of Israel's policies, but I also don't live there. As someone who is Jewish, though, it is my rather firm belief that if the situation were reversed, as you propose, the Palestinians would have slaughtered Jews in hundreds of thousands. Perhaps not a complete genocide, but a scale 100 times greated than exists in the current situation. Any why wouldn't I believe it? It's happened before - both within Christian and Muslim nations. Heck, there were 3 Jews killed in France just recently and others in India a few years ago. None were Israelis. Yet anger towards Israel is often cited as a reason. Yet such slaughters occurred very often prior to the state of Israel for less cause. To better understand the Israeli position, you must believe that most of your immediate neighbors desire your blood and wouldn't hesitate to kill everyone you love without reservation simply because you are Jewish (and not just because you are Israeli).

Do I feel Israel is correct in all of its decisions? Hardly. Settlements are a hazard and you cannot leave another group of people in subjugation. Whether one believes the Palestinians are a separate people or made of up surrounding Arabs is irrelevant. They are people living with unequal rights - perhaps better than some of their neighbors, but again semantics. They are living under Israel's authority, but without the rights of those in Israel. While Gaza and the West Bank were in the hands of Egypt and Jordan, their poor treatment could be blamed on both of those nations. If giving them equal rights to Israelis would result in the destruction of Israel and the subsequent deaths of many Jews (see my argument above), then the only rational solution left is to give them their own country. (Note: I include genocide or forced emigration of Palestinians to be completely irrational).

I would like to see Egypt and Jordan donate some land as well to redress their role in the current situation, but I cannot hold my breath for that. Israel is willing to give up Gaza (I think they've proven that). The West Bank is proving more of a problem, but I believe they must sacrifice most of that as well. The only sticking point for me is Jerusalem because I do not have faith that Muslims will let Jews visit the old city if they are in control of the city. International control is a consideration, but even that is dangerous - I'd only feel confortable with America there, but that is my bias for my faith in the nation I live in being more just and having more backbone than the rest of the world.

DocAeth

“To better understand the Israeli position, you must believe that most of your immediate neighbors desire your blood and wouldn't hesitate to kill everyone you love without reservation simply because you are Jewish”

Hmmm wouldn’t that imply that Israel is a paranoid nation? Hmmm a paranoid people who think everyone wants to kill them and who are armed to the teeth? That doesn’t sound like a recipe for a stable peace to me. I do however agree with most of what else you put, well with the exception of America controlling Jerusalem as they are far to bias towards Israel I’d suggest a repeat of Cold War Berlin (minus the wall of course) but with this time different powers, I’m thinking the US, China, Turkey and maybe Israel (I don’t know but I’m sure a balance could be found) anyway it would appear to me however that Israelis (or even Jews in general) need to get over this whole “the world is out to kill us” mentality, after all we are living in 2012 not 1941.

Of course Israel is paranoid. I do not think that is in doubt. They are always being threatened - at least verbally - by someone. Now it's Iran. 10-20 years ago Saddam was saying similar things. WWII wasn't so long ago and memories stretch long, Losmuertos, and there are those still living who remember well. As far as "the world is out to kill us", we'd lose the mentality if people would stop trying to kill us - see recent attack in France. The two of us have discussed this many times before, though. While I truly appreciate and respect your opinion, I am eager to see how Franko responds and I do not wish to see the above points buried. If Franko hasn't responded by midweek, we can continue our conversation.

Looks like Franco isn't returning. We can continue this chat if you want as well.

DocAeth

Ok so I just want to be clear, that when I say Israel (Jews) should “get over it” I don’t mean they should forget the holocaust, I mean that this irrational fear that everybody is trying to wipe them out is what they need to get over, after all Israel is the most powerful nation in the ME as is more than capable of being able to defend itself against all of its neighbours, and let’s face it there is not systematic effort to hunt down and kill all Jews worldwide, so again most of the evidence would say that your survival as a people isn’t in question, at this point I will acknowledge the French attack, but I’d like to say that A the reports say that the school wasn’t his first target, B it was the most recent attack of its kind, as the last took place in the 1990s (I think) which would hardly count as a systematic effort at wiping out a people and C (and no offense here) but in my experience it is only Jews who regard such things are an effort to wipe them all out, after all when that Korean kid went crazy at Virginia Tec (or more recently at that religious school) no one said it was an attempt to wipe out all Americans did they? So yeah it seems like the reaction spawned by an irrational fear to me, and I do believe that that fear is one of Israel’s barriers to peach, after all if your neighbour was convinced that your every action was intended to kill him (and thus acted accordingly) it would be very hard to A trust your neighbour and B making living with said neighbour very difficult wouldn’t it?

Fear absolutely makes things more difficult. The attack in Mumbai was in 2008. You have to remember that they went out of their way to kill a bunch of Jews in a synagogue who had nothing to do with anything. There is no benefit to these attacks other than pure hate. I realize lots of religions, including Judaism, have some odd beliefs but Islam does include wiping out Jews as one of them. Most Muslims scoff at the idea, but some clearly do not.

Most of the attacks against Israel have settled down due to the conversial wall. Prior to that, attacks were common. Sometimes "good fences make good neighbors."

So long as there are leaders of governments (like Iran or previously Iraq) calling for Israel's destruction, it will be difficult to lose that fear.

DocAeth

“So long as there are leaders of governments (like Iran or previously Iraq) calling for Israel's destruction, it will be difficult to lose that fear.”

Hmmm ok, to run a parallel that seems to me like a sufferer of agoraphobia saying “I’ll stop being afraid of crowds when people stop gathering in crowds” that I their fear is based solely on other peoples actions and they have no control over it, to which I have to respectfully disagree.

As for the Mumbai attacks (as horrific as they were) I have to wonder if the attacks on the synagogue didn’t have more value than just pure hate, for example maybe the attackers benefactors (so the guys who paid for it) wanted them to attack a Jewish target with the intention of aggravating Israel, after all it’s no secret that Israel advocates Jewish causes worldwide (in short they attack Israel by attacking Jews as it were) it’s a possibility.

Still - how can one not feel persecuted when you know that their are those who look to kill you because of your faith? How could Jews not wish to support Israel when it looks to defend us from those looking to do us harm - especially when other nations waver at the test?

The agoraphobia example is only valid if you allow that 10% of the time, random gunmen shoot up the crowd. If it happened 10% of the time, wouldn't you be leary of going into crowds?

Perhaps the gunmen had that benefactor, but why? The fact that they insist on attacking non-military (and not even potentially military) targets sickens me and makes them demons in my eyes. Innocents die in war and in the crossfire. I can accept that. I can't accept it when innocents ARE the target.

DocAeth

Ok so starting with the Mumbai thing first I’d have to say that I to dis-agree with civilians getting killed (under any circumstances) however it would occur to me that the killing of Jews like this could be a political act, after all Israel has (in effect) declared itself as “the nation of the Jews” which would imply that it regards all Jews as its citizens, now since one of the basic jobs of a government is to protect its citizens from aggression, the idea of attacking Jews would be to show that the Israeli government is incapable of protecting its people and thus is either illegitimate or needs to change its policy (it is the same kind of idea that lead to the 7/7 bombing in London or pretty much any other terrorist act) either way without more details of the Mumbai attack and it’s perpetrators then I cannot say much more, so this is just something to consider.

Anyway as for the agoraphobia example I was only using it to show that basing a fear on the actions of others and in essence saying “I’ll get over my fear when they change their actions” is a bit pointless after all there will always be someone who stands to gain political capital by threatening Israel, but just because they do so doesn’t mean that they have the capability (same with all Jews here) to do so, after all as I said before times have changed, so to me a lot of this fear is irrational and in many ways exaggerated, and I’m afraid that A this may be a barrier to any kind of peace (as even now the Israeli government keeps mentioning it’s security) and B that this is an issue that mostly only Israel/Jews can address.

No offense, but it gets tiring hearing about rationalizations for why people target and kill non-military Jews. It's part of the reason Israel came into existance - to have a place where that wouldn't be "acceptable."

Fear cuts to the heart of what Israel is willing to accept in any final peace deal (whether you feel that fear is rational or not). They will not take any step that they feel will lead to their own annihilation. That is why you won't see them annex the West Bank and Gaza and make all Palestinians citizens or any return of refugees in any large numbers. What they need to do (if negotiations continue to go nowhere) is just take concrete steps on their own. Decide what parts of the West Bank they are willing to surrender, withdraw settlements that are completely seperated from the main body of Israel, and step forward and declare themselves FOR Palestinian statehood. By taking that position, it will undercut a lot of the emnity some countries have for Israel. True, it would not solve final questions of security, most settlements, refugees, and Jerusalem, but it would be a strong statement and a solid advance forward in the current status quo.

DocAeth

None taken I bet it does get tiring to hear peoples attempts at rationalisation for why people kill non-Jews, but in all fairness we are all in the same boat on that one in terms of terrorists killing civilians to further their political goals, in my opinion what makes Israel unique (and an easy target) is that it has given many the impression that all Jews are its citizens (metaphorically speaking)

As for the peace I think we both want the same goal here, being a two state solution and at least some form of stability between the two nations, but I think this fear is an issue Israel needs to deal with after all it seems to put Israel on the defensive and as any military strategist will tell you “the best defence is a good offense.” In all I think what I’m getting at is that a fundamental shift in Israeli thinking needs to happen, that in a way they need to realise that not every concession they are asked to make is a hidden effort to wipe them out.

Oh and as for your idea, I think that as a last resort it would most likely be the best answer that Israel could do alone but I’d have to wonder that in doing so that it wouldn’t be “penny wise, pound foolish”

It really isn't that unique. When that pastor in Florida threatened to burn Korans and when that cartoonist in Denmark made a picture of Mohammed, most of the Muslim world took personal offense. The only difference is that Israel is only Jewish country, so it carries itself as the lone "standard bearer." If there were multiple Jewish countries, Jewish issues would be dispersed more between them and would become less personal.

I understand the "penny wise, pound foolish" sentiment, but doesn't it feel like we ARE at the last resort. Nothing changes. We are endlessly in the same cycles. Wouldn't the adult thing to do be to just say "We are willing to give up 70% of the land right now. We could give up more later in negotiations, but as we cannot agree on whether that is another 15%, 30%, or 150% (all of Israel), then this is where things stand for now. Live in peace, start making your own fate, but attack us at your peril. We'll talk more later."

The arabs now understand that only thing worse than fighting a war is losing one. At this point, they're hurting themselves more than the israelis.

its also a shame that the people who made that decision are no longer alive, its a shame how israel ignores international law, its a share how israel takes what it wants, its a shame that israel is killing the arabs....

now who exactly is being exterminated?

To this day the Arabs call for the destruction of a country, Israel, that has contributed more to the world in 50 years than have all of the Arabs in hundreds of years, saving millions of lives and making the planet a better place to live.

All in all, a good deal for humanity.

Do I detect a little bias here...or just outright arrogance.

The last true friend of the Apartheid Govt of South Africa (Master Race Jr) was Israel. It seems that they learned a lot from their former friend.

Steven

Why would the Palestinians have wanted to participate in a deal (1948) that said "you guys need to give up half your land to European settlers"? You would have also said no. It's pretty obvious.

And to those who say "there is no such thing as Palestine" yes you are right that the Palestinians were ruled by the Ottomans for hundreds of years. But how the hell does that equal "those people have no right to live there"?

Crazy logic.

MCR-425...: During the worst years of South Africa's apartheid regime more black Africans moved into the country. Why you ask? South Africa was: 1) Safer, 2) Had more jobs, 3) Better standard of living. Meanwhile, during the same period in Mozambique more than a million black Africans were slaughtered, villages were burned, starvation and rape was common, etc., etc., etc. Did the world care about that? No. Why? Because it wasn't "evil white people" doing it. Learn the facts before you decry one country over another.

wow, a pro apartheid post, thats gotta be a first in a while

Observer, the only problem is that Israel made these "contributions" under the banner of evil.

Coveting and theft of another's land is a crime against their own concept of God not to mention international law and decency. No serious "observer" can deny that.

Franco: Easy there generalissimo, no one's making "pro apartheid" comments. Just pointing out inconvenient truths is all. I take it you were more interested in getting that white guilt tribute from the likes of Paul Simon, et al who "wouldn't play Sun City" instead of dealing with the starvation and slaughter of millions of black Africans. That's right, I keep forgetting, it's always ok when blacks murder other blacks because that's their business. If only Zimmerman was a darker skin color....

From a historical perspective: Clinton pressured Israel into giving in to almost every single Palestinian demand trying to achieve peace. Israel gave into almost every demand with little in return other than a promise of maybe possibly peace in the future, including Israel giving up part of Jerusalem for a Palestinian capital. Each time Arafat raised the demands. He knowingly finally made a demand that the Israelis couldn't give into, the giving up of the temple wall that is the most sacred sight in Israel. That gave him the ability to walk away from a deal for peace. He made that decision because the surrounding countries didn't want peace with Israel because it's easier to maintain control when there is a shared enemy. You can't negotiate peace with someone that will only ultimately accept peace with your complete and utter destruction.

Also I hear the terms Palestinian Homeland or State often mentioned. What does it take for a country to be a homeland??? A majority of the population being Palestinian? A future "president" or king that is at least half Palestinian? Many many generations of Palestinians being born in such a land? All of these things describe Jordan, do they not?

@MikeP101 - You forget to point out the fact that all of the Palestinians that live in Jordan only do so because they were forced out in 1948 and again in 1967 by Israel. At which point they could never return home and because of Israel's abesntee laws and racist orginizations like the NJF their homes and land were stripped away and sold to Israeli Jews. Its funny that everyone likes to say that the "Palestinians just want to destroy Israel and drive all the Jews into the see," but lets look at reality. Which side has lost many more lives than the other, which side has its land stolen on a daily basis, which side is being ethnically cleansed from their ancestoral homeland, which side is slowly being swallowed up and destroyed by the other? Look hard enough and you'll see that the Israeli's are doing exactley what they accuse the Arabs of wanting to do.

@stewgotts

They weren't forced out in 1948 by israel--israel barely existed at the time. they were forced out by England

Not only that, but they were forced out...into a homeland reserved for them. Not bad for a people who cannot trace their history back more than 50 years

If you want to claim that arabs lived there for thousands of years prior to 1948, that's fair. And there are many Arab controlled countries bigger in aggregate than the entire US in which they could settle...if the leaders of those countries allowed it

The truth is that arabs are more racist towards palestinians than jews. They could have easily settled in Jordan, syria, egypt, etc.

Why can't Jews have an area the size of new jersey among a arab controlled region tens of thousands of square miles in area?

No one is being ethnically cleansed--that's racist propaganda

Stewgots..The Palestinian people weren't even really a consolidated people until the 20th century and most considered themselves Arabic and were a mix of indigenous peoples from the area and those from Arabic countries that settled along the coast for trade purposes. Want to know something really amusing, genetically the Jews, Palestianians, and many of the Arabic peoples in the immediate area have all been shown to share close genetics. The issue is now, how do they make peace?

Do you propose the complete destruction of Israel? Israel gave in to almost every demand with Clinton and the Palestianian leaders rejected it (Including part of Jerusalem for a Palestianian Capital)! They pulled completely out of Gaza and now it's ran by terrorists who terrorize their own people. So what do you propose for peace?

Pro:

Israeli cannot make deal because of its own fractured Government and some rich Jews in USA are playing around with their ass.

In 1948 they left after bing told they could come back once the 7 Arab armies destroyed Isreal. They have brought the misery on themselves.

Those Arabs/Pali's that live in Israel are treated better by Israel than they are in any other Arab country. Their tools of the rich Arabs who don't give a damn about them. They have been taught hate (read their textbooks) since their first day in school and before.

If they had the same opportunities to destroy Israel, as Israel has to destroy them, but have shown restraint while offering compromise, there'd be no Israel!

What spin? Fact or spin: Israel is stealing land away from this guy by building a wall on his property?

the wall doesn't need to be cutting through palestinian land. it's a blatant land grab. the wall could have been built on the 1967 borders but they decided not too.

the wall could have been built on the 1967 borders but they decided not too.

Could it be that they didn't use 1967 borders because it is now 2012?

...and they intend to steal it all

Arguesforsport,

Some crimes do not have a statute of limitations. The Arabs will never forget that the Zionists stole the land they had been raising their children on for millennia, and I don't blame them. History has a mean ability to equalize access the technology that gives short term power of the few over the many. It is just a matter of time when Israel will be burned to the ground. The only way out of the trap Israel has set for itself is to stop being bullies and pull back. NOT LIKELY! Fanatical zealots dont give anything back.

@Zekemob - its not stealing if you won it fair and square. Had the Arabs won the 1948 war - would you be even thinking about saying "they stole Israeli land"? Of course not. When you lose in Vegas casino, does the casino "steal" your money? Of course not.

Arabs lost their land, stop crying about it and do something about yourself. If they want to live - live, if they want to kill themselves - go ahead. Just leave the Israelis alone.

Something that people (and Obama for that matter) have to understand is that Israel will not return to pre-1967 borders.

Pre-1967 borders leave Israel to be 9 km wide at its narrowest point. It would make 90% of Israel's population within easy rocket-fire distance from even the simplest of rockets. Thousands of rockets are fired from Gaza and we never hear of them because Israel's ability to defend itself ensures that few are injured. However, pre-1967 borders are impossible to defend in that regard.

Returning to pre-1967 borders is suicide, considering that the party that was elected to power by the Palestinians themselves are hell-bent on Israel's destruction and have absolutely no interest in peace (if you don't believe me, read Hamas' charter. It's an eye-opener.)

On the other hand, the Palestinians are not willing to talk peace unless Israel recognizes pre-1967 borders as a pre-cursor (and the Palestinian so called 'right of return' which is ridiculous in its own right).

That's why peace is not attainable. It's quite simple in fact...

Israel should just define its own borders, and end this conflict by force. Let the Palestinians govern themselves into the 12th century.

N-529260 - I agree. Everyone, and I mean everyone know that the Palestinians will only believe in peace when it entails the death of the Jews. Its pure hatred, nurtured from birth, and the entire focus of their lives. They care little if it opposes the Koran or the Books of Moses, for they are provided with little opportunity to develop their own views and instead are forced from birth to perpetuate the God-less practices of their fathers, such as blind rocket attacks in the hopes of hitting any Jew. A people like this cannot be taken serious, because they do not take themselves serious. Do they care about education for their children more than the death of Israel? Do they care about good food and healthcare more than the death of Israel? If they do, then their fellow Palestinians will not except them, anymore than they will accept a Palestinian leader who puts anything above the death of Israel.

The Palestinian people will only survive when the few good people stand up for themselves and demand peace and renounce this never ending war campaign against Israel. Otherwise, they are no better than the Germans for following Hitlers dreams of Jewish genocide. What is worse, is because their culture is completely base on hate, if the Jews are ever wiped out, they will just pick a new enemy and start all over again murdering in the name of morality. Funny how the Great Saladin was able to live peacefully with the Jews and Christians, but 100 years later these idiots still can't figure it out. Its no surprise that Saladin was bless by God and his nation was rich beyond compare, while the Palestinian's nation is destitute and holds no peace. Maybe they should look less at Israel and more towards God.

The Arabs will never forget that the Zionists stole the land they had been raising their children on for millennia

Wasn't there a couple Jews living there for thousands of years too? I think maybe with names like, oh, I don't know, Abraham, Moses, Jesus. Or were they just immigrants from Europe?

Fanatical zealots dont give anything back.

No, they don't. They just raze everything to the ground and build mosques on the ashes.

Abraham was the mythical father of the Arabs too. It does not make you argument any stronger to bring up irrelevant issues. Fact is that the Jews did not own much of the land of Palestine prior to 1948 when they took, by force, control of all of what became Israel under the protective support of the guilt plagued West. Then they were not satisfied and have been taking more and more land ever since.

Who are the bigger fanatical zealots, the Zionists or the Arabs? Have you been to Israel and Palestine? I have, and the answer is the Zionists.

@argueforsport - I don't think that Jesus or Moses lived for a thousand years. In fact Jesus died at age 33, and to be honest I would like some proof that any of them even exsisted. I should also point ou that Abraham is also father of the Muslims, but Im sure a genuis like you already knows that. During the time of Ancient Israel the Jews only ruled over themselves for a few hundred years at most. The Palestinians have been there for thousands. Without reference to the Bible can you tell me what legal right the Jews had to Palestine in 1947?

without reference to the bible, can you give me evidence the palestinians lived there for thousands of years?

In addition, although Jews didn't "rule" that area for long, they have lived there as long as anyone. Certainly who controls the land isn't the only, and maybe not even the most important factor in determining a homeland

can you give me any evidence of americans living in america for 1000's of years?

Native americans...at least for that long...

I don't think that Jesus or Moses lived for a thousand years.

Never said they did, I said there have been Jews there for thousands of years, and gave those names as examples, but you knew that. I guess you needed some kind of fuel for your attempt to make yourself sound superior.

During the time of Ancient Israel the Jews only ruled over themselves for a few hundred years at most

But they have lived in the middle east far thousands of years. Are you saying because they have been Egyptian slaves they don't count as native peoples?

Abraham was the mythical father of the Arabs too. It does not make you argument any stronger to bring up irrelevant issues.

But Abraham was a Jew, so it is relevant, nice try.

Fact is that the Jews did not own much of the land of Palestine prior to 1948

Neither did the Palestinians. It was part of the British empire, and before that, Ottoman. There was no "Palestine" until the term was coined in the late 1960's.

Then they were not satisfied and have been taking more and more land ever since.

You mean when they were attacked by several Arab nations and handed their asses to them, then graciously gave back almost all the land they won keeping only the land that their enemies used to attack them from?

Without reference to the Bible can you tell me what legal right the Jews had to Palestine in 1947?

Sorry, I don't own a bible, or torah, or any religious texts. But the land was given to Israel by the rightful owners, the British, and the General Assembly of the United Nations. Before the British it was Ottoman land. So by your own logic, they have no right to claim, considering they just recently started ruling themselves.

americans and native americans two different groups, nice try though

Two groups? Really? According to who? YOU???

Why would native AMERICANS not be american? Thats pretty counterintuitive...because their relatives didn't come over on the mayflower?

I think your comment is actually offensive to native americans, who may also be proud to live in the USA

Nice try? it was actually quite easy, and im suprised you didn't think of it...

P.S--what the hell does this have to do with the article???

why don't the israeli settlers move back to israel proper?

disgusted

So because the leaders of surrounding Arab countries are despots that means it's ok for Israelis to confiscate Palestinian land??

To the victors go the spoils

rstout

why don't the israeli settlers move back to israel proper?

The answer to that is very simple. Because those borders move much of the densly populated israeli territory within rocket strike distance of palestine. When Israel ceded gaza, it quickly fell to Hamas control, an internationally recognized terrorist organization. Israel simply cannot risk that happening to land within a few miles of tel aviv

Im sure you will respond with some thinly veiled racist insults or innuendos, but its really just a matter of national security.

It would be like asking the US to give control of 1601 Pennsylvania avenue to al-queda

eric

comparing the israeli-palestinian situation to "asking the US to give control of 1601 Pennsylvania avenue to al-queda" has to be hands down the most inappropriate analogy I've read all day.

smt,

i can't help it if you don't understand the analogy. Either keep reading it, or get someone else to explain it to you.

If you don't understand that, why don't you try to refute any of the FACTUAL claims in my post? Because you cant??

eric

first of all, tell me at what point in history DC was a majority arab area and then we'll go from there.

Maybe if you compared it to the US giving control of DC to the Cherokee, that might be slightly (very slightly) more appropriate.

By living in DC Americans are not taking away al-qaeda's lands. Therefore your analogy is not valid.

Do you need me to explain this to you more? Do you know what an analogy is?

smt:

wow, clearly you do not understand the defiinition of analogy.

What if I told you someone was "as ferocious as a lion". Are you going to argue that humans can't be lions?

Study english, my friend. Maybe graduating high school would be a good idea, also

here's a reference for you

http://grammar.about.com/od/ab/g/analogy.htm

Harrison Ford is like one of those sports cars that advertise acceleration from 0 to 60 m.p.h. in three or four seconds

Are you going to try and argue that harrison ford is not a corvertte LOL?

dissapointed1-920275,

You are living in a 10th Century world. Under your justification of ownership, there will never be peace, anywhere. If I come to your house and take your wife away, would you think that it is just a case of "to the victors, go the spoils?" You are either very stupid, very ignorant or both.

@Eric - I think you should just leave the analogies alone for a while. You claim that there needs to be geographic seperation for there to be security, yet you somehow manage to reconcile that with the fact that Israeli Jews have stolen land right in the heart of Hebron, an Arab city of over 100,000. So in this sense 1600 Penn. Ave. is moving right next to Al-Queda. How can your analogy be appropriate for Israelis stealing land and creating communities right next to Arab villages and cities? The Palestinians can't get too close to Tel Aviv, but the Israelis can surround Ramallah?

smt123:

You completely missed his point. The reason why he made the analogy with giving al-qaida control over 1601 Pennsylvania is because from a security stand-point, it's insane. It has nothing to do with Cherokee vs. Arab.

Wow.

stewgotts:

First of all, your knowledge of history is lacking substantially.

Israel didn't steal land in Hebron - actually quite the opposite. The Jewish population of Hebron was massacred in 1929 and basically forced from their homes (this is well before 1948, if you can't figure that one out). We're talking about a population that had been there for 1000 years. And then there was none left, until 1967. I'm not sure where you are getting your history from, must be Palestinian TV or something, but your version isn't even close to what actually happened.

Secondly: you claim that 'the Palestinians can't even get close to Tel Aviv'. This is incorrect as well. There are over 1.5 million Arabs living in Israel, including in Tel Aviv. Israel has no problems with Arabs in their midst. Again, quite the opposite: During Abbas' attempt to declare Palestine a country at the UN this past year, his government made it clear that they want NO Jews living in the West Bank or Gaza.

Israel isn't surrounding Ramallah (under any proposed peace agreement - again your knowledge of the region is seriously lacking). And if you cannot understand why it's imperative for Israel to not allow Hamas to be within easy firing range of Tel Aviv and Ben-Gurion airport - well then I guess arguing with you is hopeless. You're just looking at the situation with a pre-conceived bias and have no ability to be objective in your analysis.

@stew,

what N-529260 said. I get the impression he's a pretty bright guy

Bet he hasn't asked, just waiting for the day to go back when the Jews are all dead. He'll die first!

When the gaza strip was given to the arabs, (Palestinian was invented to use by the arabs in 1966 or so), Israel moved all the bodies in all the graveyards as they were concerned the arabs would dig them up. Note the land given to the arabs, specifically the PLO which promptly lost it to hamas. Course Israel did not remove the synagogs as they were religious places, which the arabs promptly burned to the ground. So why does abu islamikazi not move the graves to his side.

Besides the arabs build nearly anywhere they want courtesy of Israel and then claim the land. the Israelis are constantly harrassed about where they build even if it is on Jewish owned land.

Since there is no Palestine, and there are no such people as Palestinians, maybe they should move to a friendly arab nation? That is where they came from before they stole the Jew's land.

Or maybe the Jews should set up reservations and have the Arabs set up gambling casinos like we did with the Native Americans here in America.

thomas, you are completely wrong. please learn the facts

arabs are severely restricted in building, rarely getting building permits. they are then forced to build without permits, and their homes then get demolished. even projects by foreign ngo's are demolished by israel. in contrast, jewish settlements have no trouble getting building permits. even outposts the israeli government considers illegal get hooked up for utilities and have roads built

the arabs in the west bank, whether you call them palestinians or not, have been there for hundreds of years. the population did increase in the early 1900's before israel was formed, but the arabs there now and their parents were born there. it is completely false that they build and then claim the land

the arabs in the west bank, whether you call them palestinians or not, have been there for hundreds of years.

And we all know the Jews come from China and never lived in the middle east, right? Jerusalem is famous for being the birthplace of Mohammed too, and no Jew ever lived there until 1948. /sarc

rstout,

any evidence for your claims? From everything I've seen, including surveys of arabs living in israel, they claim to be satisfied and happy with their treatment

rstout your completely wrong or just making stuff up. Eric is right on. It is a fact. Look it up friend. And actually if the Arabs really wanted peace then they would always find a willing partner in Israel. The fact of the matter is that the Arabs don't because in their constitution they call for the destruction of Israel, they teach their children hatred and violence. Just have them change their ways! Israel is always in protection mode from these murderers. The Arabs that actually live in Israel enjoy a much better life because of the Israeli government.

@Argueforsport - There was a small population of Jews living in Jerusalem and they actually opposed the creation of Israel. At the time of partition Jews made up only about 30% of the population, and that was after mass illegal immigration. They also owned only 7% of the land.

@Onedumbcookie - Can you provide a link to the Arab Constitution please. You know in the Likud Charter it states unequivocally that there will never be a Palestinian State, and guess who the head of the Likud is? Thats right, Prime Mintser Bibi. Some partner for peace those Israelis are. Israelis also teach their children hatred and violence. Israelis have killed many more innocent Arabs than vice-versa, so who are really the murderers.

@kountryqueen

Sorry, Mr. Nadal. Maybe if you give up your false religion and convert to Judaism, you can join the family of Man and be buried next to your mother.

So he should give up his false religion that believes that God created the universe. God created Adam and Eve. God kicked them out of Eden. God spoke to Abraham. God destroyed the world and made Noah build an Ark to save animals. God gave 10 commandments to Moses and led the Jews out of Egypt...etc. etc. forrrrrr........................................

a real religion that believes God created the universe. God created Adam and Eve. God kicked them out of Eden. God spoke to Abraham. God destroyed the world and made Noah build an Ark to save animals. God gave 10 commandments to Moses and led the Jews out of Egypt...etc. etc.

I can't believe that in this day and age someone like @Kountryking would make the statement -

Sorry, Mr. Nadal. Maybe if you give up your false religion and convert to Judaism, you can join the family of Man and be buried next to your mother.

So only Judaism is the true religion and the rest of us have a false religion. What's the world coming too.

kountryking's comment is the first honest comment from the anti-Palestinian crowd. He's only saying what the others really think- that Judaism is the true religion, the Jews are the Chosen people, and Muslims are less than human. Nice.

Since most religions stole ideas, thoughts, and stories from our Torah to create their own religions, then THEY must believe that Judism is somewhat valid.

I like the way everyone says Israel is wrong, but the Soviet Union invaded the entire country of Georgia and barely a peep was heard. Coincidence? No.,......just the same old anti-Sementic garbage.

jw101

1) This idea that criticizing Israel is antisemitic is really old and tired. Plenty of jews living inside Israel are very critical of land grabs, the fence, and the settlements. Criticizing Israel does not equal antisemitism.

2) The Torah stole plenty of stories and ideas from the Egyptians, Babylonians, and others. So does that make the ancient Babylonian religion more valid than Judaism?

3) Your childish analogy re: the USSR fails in one massively obvious respect: we were not the allies of the USSR and we did not fund their military. That is why the Arab-Israeli conflict attracts so much attention, because they are our closest allies in the region. That is why people become upset.

The claim that arabs have to the land is that in the Bible and Torah, Abraham took Isaac up to the mountain to sacrifice him. In the Koran which was written in the 8th century, it is written that Abraham took Ishael, the father of all arabs, so therefore the land if Israel belongs to them. they dont care about the ten commandments or Moses. Noah, Moses etc are of the line of Abraham thru Issac. they dont count. the line is according to the arabs Abraham thru Ishmael. Hey its written in their koran, the direct word of their god. So who can refute it?

Gee @!$%#, KK, if someone took your home from you, I'm sure you'd be pretty pissed at them too.

thomas

whatever myths are written in "holy" books is not how modern people should decide who lives where. I don't care what the bible or koran says, the fact of the matter is that for hundreds if not thousands of years that area was inhabited by Arab peoples. You can call them elves if you don't want to use "Palestinians" that's fine, but they have been there and they are there. We should not use "holy" books to kick people out of their homes. That's about the most unholy thing possible.

1. It's not as easy to convert to Judaism as one might think. Any Rabbi will tell the convert-to-be that it's not necessary to be a Jew to live a righteous life; that being a Jew is a burden and an intrinsic danger, sometimes a deadly danger. Only when you persuade the Rabbi that you really feel the need to follow all the laws and restrictions of Judaism, and have a real reason to do so, he may be persuaded to go forward with a lengthy (years!) and difficult (you need to learn the religious laws in details and demonstrate you actually follow them) process of conversion. It's never been as easy as just that minor surgery on the manhood, though you'll have to go through it as part of the conversion. Hint: needing a permit to enter Israel is not considered a valid reason for conversion.

2. Judaism might have its own deficiencies. But at least it was not founded by a crazed liar, murderer, and pedophile, whose claim to be a prophet has no basis in the realm of the rational.

anonymous

The reason that the Palestinians have a right to live in Palestine has nothing to do with Islam or Muhammed or Judaism... they have a right to live there because they are there and have been there for a long time! Whether they are Muslim arabs or Christian arabs or even atheist. Who cares what you think about the origins of Islam? Your opinion about that religion does not mean those people do not have a right to live there!

If "taking peoples' homes for themselves" doesn't make someone an occupier, I'm curious what your definition is, Charles.

even israel considers it occupied terrority. they annexed jerusalem (which most of the world doesn't recognize) and but haven't annexed the west bank and gaza.

charles

It is the textbook example of an occupation. What do you think, the Palestinians dropped in from Mars? Your comment is offensive to reason.

umm...israel considers it part of their ancesteral homeland, so they dont define israel as an occupation. The west bank and gaza could be considered that....

But Palestinians want you to believe ALL of israel is occupied territory

I believe this article references Jerusalem, which israel certainly does NOT consider occupied.

Does the US consider Texas 'occupied' territory?

Come on now, if you think thats a "textbook" definition, you either need a new textbook, or learn how to read...

eric

yes in fact Texas was occupied. The only difference is that what happened in Texas happened many generations ago, whereas what is happening in Palestine is happening RIGHT NOW. People are getting evicted from their homes. Tonight. This isn't some theoretical academic discussion, this is reality.

It doesn't matter what Israel considers to be its ancestral homeland. What if I decided that Denmark was my ancestral homeland? Does that give me the right to occupy it? What if I had a holy book to prove it?

Almost every square inch of land on earth has been occupied violently by one group or another. We can't go back and rectify every conquest. But we should, as moral modern people, stop it from happening right now. I had hoped that we have learned to stop conquering others. Most nations have. Israel (and China for example) still hasn't learned that lesson in modernity apparently.

Almost every s

quare inch of land on earth has been occupied violently by one group or another

.

Agreed, so how can we ever truly define "occupation"?

I wonder what would have happened if the Israelis had decided their "promised land" was one of the US states - YOUR state. Would you have happily rolled over and "recognized Israel's right to exist"?

there's no security reason for the wall to cut through his land and so many other palestinians' land. it's a blatant land grab for jewish settlers.

the palestinian leadership said years ago that if israel built their wall on the 1967 borders, the palestinians would help them build it

Christian Soldier

First... do you turn the other cheek? Just checking.

Second, the Palestinians' "chance" at nationhood in 1948 was basically giving up half their land to settlers. Would you have agreed to that?

Third, the shooting of rockets is the desperate act of a desperate people forced to live like rats in a cage.

Fourth, why doesn't Israel "simply recognize" the Palestinian state? Because of security concerns? Ok then, tear down the settlements and start treating the Palestinians like human beings. That is the first step to peace.

Desperate people? Living in cage? They live where they want to, as they want to, and that's what is called "independence".

You cannot claim independence and then say "hey, we don't like how we live, its your fault, so we are going to shoot you". Doesn't work. If the Palestinians want to be independent they need to take responsibility. If they threaten their neighbor - the neighbor will react. If the neighbor is stronger - the reaction will hurt.

The Palestinians are the only ones to blame in their situations.

littleadv

please read a little history and current events. The inhabitants of Gaza are forbidden by Israel and Egypt from crossing borders.

Many many products (including at times cement to build homes) are forbidden to be imported. That is why the people of Gaza build those long underground tunnels, to smuggle in basic items from Egypt. Did you not know about this? Remember the Turkish ship that got boarded? Yeah they were bringing in forbidden items. At various times the ban on importation has included light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo and conditioner.

Can you imagine an area (Gaza) only twice the size of DC with no real access to the outside world? The Palestinians aren't shooting rockets because they want to go somewhere else, they are shooting rockets because they want the rest of their land back.

The world is an interesting place. Read more about it.

The problem with the 67 borders, which is why the Arabs (I say Arabs cause there's more than Palestinians in this area) want them, is they are strategic for attacking Israeli cities. Plus, if Israel was stupid enough to give in to those requirements, past History suggests that the Palestinians would keep asking for more. You know how many times there was ALMOST a peace? Israel just wants to be left alone. How many years have they been there? They aren't leaving, no more than we are leaving America. It is what it is. The wall wasn't orginated for a land grab, it was done to prevent entry into its cities to blow up its innocents in busses, discos, restaurants, etc.

The problem I have with Israel is what theyre doing now. I undertsand everything theyve done up to now. But, the continued settlements bothers me. Yes, they are tired of trying to workout a peace and they don't trust the "crocodile tears" as I don't. BUT, I don't think it justifies taking more land. Yes, I've heard they will offer up some settlements in a peace agreement, but some of the new places are behind the wall and that aint going nowhere. I feel they lost the better position here and I'm disappointed.

Spare me the sob story.

Things have happened right in the US on domestic soil causing hatred against anyone with Jewish ancestry. Tiny Israel isn't bothering anyone and defending its own which they have a right to.

What is wrong with you sick people that favor the majority and hate the minority?

It's true the Arab leadership screwed their own people in 1948. And it's true Hezbollah and Hamas in Lebanon and Syria have made cooperation impossible, and that suicide bombers terrorized Israelis. I also understand the purpose of the wall. But without consideration of local Arab neighbor's lives, then the hatred goes on for centuries. Whole generations on both sides have never known peace. I think the saying applies, "we have met the enemy and they are us."

"But without consideration of local Arab neighbor's lives" - what about the consideration of the local Jewish neighbor lives? How many Jews have been blowing up Palestinian dance clubs? How many Jews have been blowing up Palestinian pubs and public transportation? How many Jews have been shelling Palestinian neighborhoods without any distinction or purpose just for the heck of it, attempting to kill as many civilians as possible?

When the Palestinians stop all that - their lives will start to improve. You can see that when you visit Ramallah and Gaza - the difference is obvious.

They want independence - they need to act accordingly.

littleadv

so I take it you haven't heard of the Gaza war/occupation of 2008-2009. Casualties:

10 Isreali soldiers

3 Israeli civilians

up to 750 Palestinian militants/police

up to 720 PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS

Yes, Israelis do shell civilian neighborhoods.

You know why they're surrounded? They were given land stolen from the locals. It should come as no shock that these displaced people would hold a grudge.

Losers - they need to get over it.

'Tiny Israel' is the only middle east nation with weapons of mass destruction (nuclear); and they have twice as many as India!

mkaipo - And thank God it is Israel with nuclear weapons and not one of the many Arab nations with no self-control; otherwise nuclear weapons would quickly move from a deterrent to the weapon of choice as old Arabian leaders willingly sacrifice the entire world to make a point.

As far as new Jewish settlements, no one can blame them because the Palestinians do not actually have a real government that anyone can work with. They are unable to make any agreement, of any kind, and actually require their citizens to oppose Jews whenever possible, even when it is against their own best interest.

The simple fact is that instead of developing their nation and addressing their social problems over the past 50 years, like Israel has, they instead have focused on blaming Israel, while doing nothing to help themselves. Their government is impotent with no real authority over its people and no goals other than war with Israel, while their people are un-empowered with little opportunity. All of this is their leader’s fault and not Israel’s. Blow up Israel and these people’s aging leaders will still spend their last breaths in some futile attempt to exact revenge on anyone they can blame for their own lake of responsibility. This is just how Arab governments work by diverting public attention from the lack of their governments to address their social problems in a responsible manner. Instead, they just blame it on someone else, like the Jews, Americans, U.K., or anyone from a non-Islamic nation, while suppressing their own population’s opinions. Truth be told, many Arabs do not hate Israel, but their governments work overtime to silence or discredit them in order to perpetuate the hatred.

At one time the mighty Persian Empire was immense and although they were the most powerful nation in the world, they never forced those nations that they conquered to change a thing or follow Islamic laws. Yet once their religious nuts took over, it fell almost overnight. If there is a God, he sure hasn’t blessed these people for a long, long time.

If taking peoples' land and homes doesn't make you an occupier, I'm curious just what the hell you WOULD consider an occupier.

The dopes in the OWS movement?

Toasty -the well-known anti-Semitic.

EWUSNRET

Really, come on, this trend of saying anybody who criticizes Israeli policy is an antisemite is nuts. Plenty of Jews criticize Israeli government policies. Let's hear some real issues.

Wing nuts can't seem to separate Jews from Israel.

Feel free to give me one anti-semitic quote, Ewus. Go on. What are you afraid of?

Toasty, sitting in an Iranian bunker, its easy to talk about failed experiments, but if you consider to compare Israeli economy to the Iranian, or even the US, its very clear: the failed experiment is you. You need to work to remove the Ayatollahs from the power in your country, before you intervene in what's going on in the US and Israel. Its Iran, your country, that's causing most of the unrest in the Middle East for the last 20-30 years. Its Iran, your country, that is threatening all around it. Its Iran, your country, that pays for these hateful comments and pays Palestinians to kill their own children.

Stop supporting the terrorists that hijacked Iran, and the world will be a much better place.

littleadv

What? Toasty is Iranian?

I'm Iranian now? This is certainly news to me...

And no, LA, a country that has a majority of its territory transformed into ghettos and Bantustans is not a success. A country kept afloat by U.S. foreign aid is not a success. A country that has been at constant war with its neighbors since they stole their land in 1948 is not a success. And a country that has gotten Americans killed for blindly supporting it is NOT A @!$%#ING SUCCESS.

Still waiting on those quotes, kiddo.

What aid? There's no aid. Only requirement for the Israelis to buy in the US (as opposed to the EU or China, which otherwise would be much more appealing to them).

Gaza is free.

Anything else?

And no, Israel had nothing to do with September 11. If you consider giving up to all the terrorist claims - just shoot yourself, will be faster and less damaging to others.

LA, stop throwing around the word "terrorist." People have died to terrorism, REAL people. It's not some cutesy game you can play to try to score political points. If you had ever left your perfect, sheltered little world, you'd have a lot more respect for the real victims of real terrorism.

Master Bates - there are no such people called "Palestinians". They're Arabs.

But but but... They elected that government, haven't they?

Yeah, but "Palestinian" is no more a made-up designation than "Israeli."

there's no security reason for the wall to cut through his land and so many other palestinians' land. it's a blatant land grab for jewish settlers.

the palestinian leadership said years ago that if israel built their wall on the 1967 borders, the palestinians would help them build it

@rstout - Israel builds the wall where it sees fit. If the Palestinians wanted to build a wall along the 1967 border - they should have done it in 1967 instead of starting yet another war (after they were explicitly warned by the Israelis not to).

By the way, something for you to think about: The wall along the Gaza border is exactly along the 1967 lines. Did it help? Did it prevent the rockets and mortars? No. So what's the point?

But so were the Arabs! So?

1. Because almost all the land is private. So what?

2. Because you would probably want to catch people crossing the wall to murder families in their sleep before they reach the settlement.

Now, can you justify murdering infants in their sleep, on the other hand? Because that's why they're building the wall to begin with.

It seems like each side is constantly antagonizing the other.

No, it is the terrorist group Hamas and their Iranian backers that are causing all the trouble.

How do I know this?

Because Israel isn't having these troubles with any of her other (not-exactly-friendly) neighbors.