E-mail updates
Follow on Twitter
Subscribe to RSSUsing a scraper, nail-polish remover and a camera, 66-year-old Irmela Mensah-Schramm is tackling neo-Nazi hate in Berlin. The retired special-needs teacher has removed more than 90,000 hateful stickers and graffiti.
(This report has been updated to correct an error.)
By Andy Eckardt, NBC News
BERLIN – Irmela Mensah-Schramm has embarked on her very personal "combat mission" almost daily for 26 years. Her weapons? A scraper, nail-polish remover, a camera and lots of courage.
Come rain, heatwaves or stormy weather, the 66-year-old sets out to battle what she calls "extremely disturbing" neo-Nazi and racist graffiti, stickers and posters that blight the streets of Germany's capital.
The retired special-needs teacher has now removed more than 90,000 stickers and scribblings.
"Even when I injured my leg several years ago and was walking on crutches, it did not stop me from removing the muck off traffic light poles, bus stops or building walls," Mensah-Schramm says.
Mensah-Schramm travels by commuter train to areas she believes are right-wing strongholds, places where xenophobic propaganda and spray-painted Nazi symbols mix with gang-related graffiti and the more colorful works of spray-paint artists.
'Appalled'
Her "vocation" started with a single neo-Nazi sticker on a street light outside of her apartment in the upmarket Berlin-Wannsee area.
"One morning, I saw a banned Nazi symbol well visible on a lamp post and was appalled that people in my neighborhood ignored it day in and day out, without removing this trash," Mensah-Schramm recalls.
"Only a short while later, I witnessed an incident in which my Indian brother-in-law became the victim of racist bashing. This shocked me so much that I decided to act."
John Macdougall / AFP - Getty Images file
Anti-Nazi activist Irmela Mensah-Schramm scrapes a sticker off a drainpipe in eastern Berlin's Lichtenberg district on December 20.
She documents much of the offensive material in photographs and has compiled a scrapbook, which she always carries with her. Mensah-Schramm calls her project "Hate Destroys".
"For many years, I have been displaying my pictures in exhibits across the country," Mensah-Schramm says. "I talk about my experiences in schools and I regularly host workshops with children and students, generating awareness for the bad impact of these ugly racist messages."
Swastikas
Even ill health hasn't stopped her determined drive to wipe out extremist propaganda. After undergoing a cancer operation at a Berlin hospital in 1995, Mensah-Schramm found two swastikas painted in a stairwell. She rushed back to the nurses, asked for acetone and scrubbed away as much as she could before becoming too weak to finish the job. It was the first day Mensah-Schramm was able to get out of bed.
"In some journeys, I need to take tougher measures with black spray-paint or anti-graffiti solvent to remove writings off walls, and sometimes I even ask people on the street to help me out, if I cannot reach the graffiti," Mensah-Schramm says as she walks past run-down apartment buildings in an economically depressed neighborhood in the Berlin suburb of Koenigs Wusterhausen, which was once part of communist East Germany.
"Look, that is my work," she proudly points out, as she walks past a black square, which was once a swastika that she recently painted over.
Her message is clear: Don't look away.
"You cannot achieve something by doing nothing," explains Mensah-Schramm, whose husband was born in Ghana.
"This type of xenophobic propaganda on the streets can help to spread dangerous ideologies, which can be part of a radicalization process that ultimately can lead to extreme violence," she says, referring to recent revelations about a neo-Nazi terror cell that shocked Germany and led to a nationwide debate about the danger of right-wing extremism in the country.
Murder spree
Two men, Uwe Mundlos and Uwe Boehnhardt, and their 36-year old female accomplice, Beate Zschaepe, formed the so-called National Socialist Underground (NSU). The group is believed to be responsible for the murders of at least nine small businessmen of Turkish and Greek origin between 2000 and 2006, as well as the slaying of a police officer in 2007.
Much to the embarrassment of German authorities, the country's law enforcement agencies only connected the crimes and their xenophobic motives in late 2011 after two of the three cell members committed suicide, following a bank robbery that put police on their trail.
German investigators originally suspected that the victims were most likely killed by fellow immigrants and might have been involved in gang-related crimes.
While critics say that German authorities had turned "blind on the right eye", by focusing instead on tackling Islamist terrorism, lawmakers set up an anti-terror center for right-wing extremism in December. Last month, Germany's parliament also appointed a commission of inquiry into the series of killings.
The German government has also established a database aimed at better coordination in the fight against violent neo-Nazis, partly because the NSU terror cell apparently remained in the shadows for so long due to poor lines of communication between different national security agencies and state authorities.
"Attacks on local politicians and violent acts against foreigners show that the goal is to spread fear and terror," Heinz Fromm, the head of Germany’s domestic intelligence agency, told a recent symposium in Berlin.
'Brutality'
Germany's domestic intelligence agency estimates that there are about 9,500 potentially violent neo-Nazis among the 26,000 right-wing extremists in the country.
"For years, we have been seeing that brutality within right-wing extremism has been on the rise," says Dr. Alexander Eisvogel, vice-president of Germany’s domestic intelligence agency.
However, Mensah-Schramm insists that she remains unafraid.
"I have been threatened many times by neo-Nazis, who have seen me remove their works,” she says. “And once, I came across big letters written on a wall that read: 'Schramm, we will get you'.
"Another time, I found my photo illegally posted on a well-known neo-Nazi website, where the subtitle indicated that nobody would care if I was dead," Mensah-Schramm describes.
She filed an official complaint over the violation of her personal rights. "Unfortunately, that got me nowhere because the server for the page was based in the United States," Mensah-Schramm says.
Andy Eckardt, NBC News
This neo-Nazi sticker that reads "nationalism" in German is among the thousands that have been removed by Irmela Mensah-Schramm.
In fact, German authorities are facing a growing challenge when it comes to online enforcement.
Extremist groups are turning to web servers in the United States to host their content and spread their messages beyond the jurisdiction of local authorities. While displaying of Nazi symbols and the incitement of racial hatred are outlawed in Germany, neo-Nazi websites take advantage of free speech laws in the United States.
As the retiree counts sticker number 70,076, removed at a bus stop outside a local high school, she turns and says, "There are these small, but very rewarding moments."
"A former neo-Nazi, who had massively threatened me in the past and later exited the scene, stopped me on the street one day," Mensah-Schramm says with a choked voice. "He took off his sunglasses, looked me straight in the eyes and said that he wanted to thank me for never giving up my fight.
"I was so overwhelmed by the gesture that I started to cry," Mensah-Schramm says, before walking off to complete her mission of the day.
Leave a Comment:
It's amazing how Hitlers idiotic ideas have warped 2 or 3 generations of minds.
Your right schoolyard and read any article about Israel and you will see''Hitlers idiotic ideas'' alive and well among leftists and sociopaths posting on newsvine.
You're.
The ultimate question here is: do people have the right to their own country without being "multiculturalized" by those from the third world?
Evidently the answer is: As long as they're not white.
Japan, for example, is not a multicultural nation. Therefore they have no real need for nationalist movements.
Virtually every "white" country on Earth is suffering from massive immigration from the third world, and are then FORCED to accept it by their governments as they see their culture, their heritage and their way of life permanently and irreversibly eroded.
The Marxist subversives have a very sneaky way of affecting a takeover: They claim compassion, and then argue that anyone trying to keep THEIR country THEIRS is being "bigoted" and "hateful" and therefore don't deserve the right to speak their views. This is the tripe that fills newspapers and articles like this one.
schoolyard...Hitler's ideas were not all new. He added a little of his own ideas, but for the most part he merely carried out and intensified the thoughts and ideas already existing in the German culture. Intelligent, wise and thoughtful Germans let go of those ideas after WWII.
your statement is a text book definition of xenaphobia. but it's also true the left controlled media suggest's we whose ancestors{both black and white] built this country[the U.S.] are supposed to hold hands and sing cumbaya,while our cities are turned into bario's.
I guess you didn't notice the part about this being a right-wing ideology.
It's called assimilation, nothing is 'eroded' - only built upon. Your 'culture' is not endangered by another culture, and even if it did... if it takes a culture of hate to preserve your culture - then that's not a culture worth having anyway. By taking on nationalistic fascist hate to 'preserve' your culture - you are only accomplishing the very task of which you are supposedly fighting against.
So you think that a free country belongs to a particular ethnicity? Religion? Sounds like Saudi Arabia. Strange that, in that case one might think that you should be friends - not enemies.
You are confused. That is not the ultimate question. You betray your bigotry if you think it is. No one's country is "theirs." Indeed, the globe belongs to no one. It was here first and we belong to it. The ultimate question is when will we get past this illusion of nationalism that we have created and learn to treat each other as human beings regardless of color or creed. That goes for all colors, ethnicities and creeds. BTW, what makes you think the Japanese aren't white?
I love when people complain about immigrants, it just shows how blind they are to US history.
Where do you think most of US culture comes from? Really, just guess.... what do you think MADE the US? The food? The various little subsets of culture... from California, to Texas, to Upper Michigan, to the South East.
It's a mix dude, all a mix. These 'barios' are just another facet of what makes this country the 'melting pot'.... nothing is lost in the 'melting pot' nothing disappears... it all goes into the pot.
It only speaks to ignorance, people who complain about hispanics in this country, when hispanics were living in California and Texas long before most any of our ancestors showed up. Myself, I come from a Finnish/German background that moved to the Upper Midwest in the 1920s. The town I grew up in was first settled by Italian immigrants.
Native Americans were here first btw.. who's country is it really?
LiFe&LiBeRtY.defender, you don't know the difference between extreme right and extreme left. Hitler was extreme right, Mussolini was extreme left. No wonder you have a circus car of clowns running for president. Socialism/Communism are a systems were the state owns the means of production and distribution. Fascism is a system where the corporations a part of the government and one party rules, just like you extreme right no nothings want.
The only socialist system in the US is the VA. Why don't you tell a few vets that you want to do away with the VA and force them to get private insurance from Wall Street?
And, BTW, go get yourself an education. A dismal lack of it is what is wrong with the right wing base.
Hobbes' Notes thanks for your very rude post,pretty typical of what I have read from youHobbes' Notes.
We have the idiots here in the USA, even though it's not a topic anyone ever wants to tackle. When they march to State capitals and "free-speech" as they call, they do whatever they want. But when OCCUPY CITIZEN, demand equal economic rights they are beat by the same cops who protect hate. What a messed up country. Keep pointing at Germany, it's right here in this country openly!
@Machinehead
I agreed with you up until the nonsensical bit about "Marxist subversives". What does a highly fragmented movement born from a 140 year old economics publication have to do with "multiculturization"? Nothing, that's what. Mind you, an economy built upon a "cheap", foreign labor element(slavery anyone?) that would ultimately undermine society as a whole, and all for the enrichment of an aristocratic few who fought(well, the poor did anyway) like hell to maintain their oligarchic chokehold around a nation's freedom-loving neck smells much like hypercapitalism to me. Sound familiar? Blame our greedy forefathers. And all of the current republican party. And most of the democratic party.
As a youth, I saw not only "intergration" with the blacks take place in Florida schools, but I also saw the "invasion" of the Cubans and black islanders into Florida society. The schools and towns were trashed and destroyed, education scores fell and crime rose. It was a high cost to pay for Cuban sandwiches and Jamaican jerk. Now as an adult, I see the same thing taking place with the Mestizos and it isn't a good thing for America. This race-mixing woman and her sister are doing their part to destroy the Caucasian Race. They are probably jews.
We Americans seem to react to immigration issues, like the influx of illegal Mexicans, after the population is here and nothing can be done about it. We are currently allowing Muslims to enter our country legally, and to create Muslim communities in America. By the time the mistake is realized, it will once again be too late to do much about it. Thankfully, the Nazis were crushed before we allowed them to establish a population in America.
Our open door policy needs some serious revision.
Machinehead, you need to look at the NON White Continents that were over-run when the White man got there. North and South America, Africa, Australia for starters all had "Natives" in their countries when the whites showed up. They came in, brought their religions, their diseases all in the name of "Peace".
While I have no problem with Immigrants coming into our country..Hell, we all immigrants in one form or another, I only have a problem with the ILLEGALS.
I live in the Boston area. The larges group of Illegals here are the Irish. Should THEY be deported? HELL YESS...Get rid of all the Illegals..Starting w/Obozo's Aunt who lives in Boston on welfare in public housing ILLEGALLY
that happened with the Irish, the Germans, the Italians, ....
FYI: It's not just brown immigrants that might cause a spike in crime. It's immigration in general - but in the long run we are better off for it. "Cuban sandwhiches and Jamaican Jerk" isn't the only thing they bring to the table, much like "Hamburger and Pasta" aren't the only thing earlier immigrants brought.
Bigotry is only ignorance in action.

The illegal immigrants aren't really the problem - afterall, they are just people looking for work. You or I would probably do the same thing in their position. The problem is this immigration system we have and the incentives we give to employers to continue hiring illegal labor. Personal Tax IDs are available for undocumented workers, but yaknow what - it's the EMPLOYER that doesn't want to file for those IDs so he doesn't have to pay taxes. It's our demand for cheap labor, a persistent demand that will never go away and just changes forms from one to the other (from slavery to illegal immigrants, same driving force).
The system needs to change to mitigate illegal labor - better guest worker programs. The demand for cheap labor will NEVER go away - and so long as there is a demand, it will be filled.... either legally or illegally. (it's called Capitalism).
Adam Free Man...you confuse race with culture, as many often do.
@Shuklack
Pay attention- Our European heritage is what gives the U.S. its governmental stability. Understand? Without it, there is no functioning "melting pot". Ever been to the Congo?
Hispanics in this country? In Texas and California? First, there is no "Texas" or "California" without the evolved Euro-modeled ideas infused into the U.S. constitution. If, however, you're referring to swaths of geography, which you must, then you're alluding to the remnants of conquistador rule. Otherwise know as Mexicans. Quick history lesson: Spain is a European country. Through miscegenation, and subsequent defeated abandonment, they gave the world Mexico, and a host of other delightful, perpetually warring "melting pot" nations. Not unlike what the Brits bore in Jamaica, etc. Mexicans, outside of their ruling elite, are little more than spanish-speaking Aztecs and mestizos. A people, left unto their own devices, who did not develop a written language. I could certainly have done without their "cultural" contribution.
Let's be clear- even if Texas and California were "given back" to the Mexicans, they'd still be climbing walls to get in to the lower 46. After all, isn't that why they left Mexico in the first place...
The neo-nazis are nothing different from the antisemitic Americans from the left and the Muslims who want to wipe out Israel from the face of the earth, whom also help Hitler in WWII.
So you're saying Mexicans are European - so they must be ok right? What's your gripe then?
History lesson: You just defeated your own argument.
Lol, not every civlization progresses along the same time-lines, or without the help of others. The Chinese had a developed written language long before the Europeans.... I guess they must be better.
Somehow you seem to implying that certain ethnicities have an innate inability to make progress, as if they each live in a bubble and left to their own devices could not have succeeded. Do you honestly think Africa is in a bubble? At one time Mansa Musa led one of the greatest civilizations on earth in the Sub Saharan....
Reading lesson: You can't read.
What don't you understand about "Spanish-speaking Aztecs and mestizos"? Everything, apparently.
Next.
No I read it, it just seemed so factually incorrect and irrelevant that I ignored it. There are very few pure native indians left.
Mestizo is mixed heritage. So - are you saying that mixed blood makes them inferior to pure blood Spanish? It seems you are implying that.
Umm yes, geographic regions - because lines drawn in the sand are just that.... lines drawn in the sand. People don't suddenly change depending on what latitude a line is drawn on a map by some guy that the people living there have never met before.
"Lol", "civilized societies" is a relative valuation, and consequently indeed a function of time. Get it?
The Chinese have always been an advanced society, and I wouldn't dream of imposing my cultural values, deficiencies, or however one wishes to characterize my gifts to humankind upon their very able people. You? Further, what's your point?
"Somehow you seem to implying that certain ethnicities have an innate inability to make progress, as if they each live in a bubble and left to their own devices could not have succeeded."
^This sentence appears to contradict itself. Want to try again?
About those Sub-Saharan Africans- their proportion of fast-twitch type II B muscle fibers is measurably greater than those of their European, for example, counterparts. While their serum testosterone levels up until the age of 30 are also higher. Do the evolutionary implications register? I'll wait.
Shuklack good job..... John, Doh no.... next.
Precisely.
No, what I actually said is that they're mostly "Spanish-speaking aztecs and mestizos". See, not "irrelevant". Read much?
By the way, there is nothing "factually incorrect" about Mexico's population being predominantly "Spanish-speaking Aztecs and mestizos". Try again. This time with facts.
This confused screed, however, does have exactly zero relevance to the discussion at hand. God, I'm good.
Why don't you just break it down for us Genius? Or rather stop beating around the bush and get to your Point.
Edit.
Oh never mind....your one of those "inferior Blood types" I wont even waste my time with you.
Read it again.
The catalyst for progress is movement of peoples. Any society which is isolated is likely not to progress, the more traffic there is - the more progress is made. There is a reason why Mesopotamia is called the Cradle of Civilization, it was virtually the crossroads of numerous groups of people... from the far East, to Europe, to Africa. The Mediterranean facilitated the advancement of cultures because it put so many different groups within reach.
For example: The British Isles were a backwater of tribalism and petty warlords until the Romans conquered it. Why? Because they were largely isolated and had little contact with other cultures and people. The more isolated a society is, the less progress there is.
Your whole argument is based on this assumption that other ethnicities are inferior, and because of their ethnicity, if left to their own devices (in a bubble) they would remain so.... this is a logical fallacy because it's not ethnicity which is the driving factor, it's only a correlation.
It has nothing to do with ethnicity and everything to do with the bubble and transfer of knowledge and technology. It's a small miracle that the pre-European Americas advanced to the level that they did because the geography is not very conducive to major transferrence, and that the starting population was relatively small and localized that was not privvy to the access that Europe had. It's truly an ignorant statement to see the level of technology that they reached as anything but exceptional.
As for your cute 'perpetual war' commend - I guess that has NOTHING to do with Europeans coming in, enslaving the people who lived there, and drawing their lines in the sand based upon the resources that they desired rather than the people who lived there - then giving them a couple generations of autonomy (with the same lines in the sand) and expecting everything to be hunky-dory... yeah, nothing at all to do with that. It's just the innate nature of brown people to want to kill eachother, because we all know that the white Europeans got along so well before they discovered all those brown people to kill. (ssssss)

I'm sorry, I was under the assumption that you couldn't possibly be actually making an argument that people are inferior based on their ethnicity alone.
By chance, exactly what sort of mix of European are you? Because one time the world was much smaller in the eyes of those who lived there - and your ideological ancestors would have considered those filthy Rus to be racially inferior to their pure Alemanni blood.
Your ideology is just a rehash of the same old fallacy, that somehow seems to always include the other... but forget the other of yesterday as if "oh my bad, these guys looked different, but those other guys look even MORE different, so now they are the inferior ones".... it's silly really.
I did. It was a clumsily written sentence. Thus your desperately elaborated re-explanation.
Spare me the Jared Diamond spiel. I've read 'Guns, Germs, and Steel'. All very impressive...except of course for the exhaustive futility of a centrally collapsing thesis. Care for me to elaborate?
And you'd guess wrong. Meanwhile, I guess all that sanctimony that followed makes you feel quite foolish right about now"(ssssss)"...whatever that means.
No need to apologize, rookie mistake. Inferior, different...nuclear fission vs. bamboo huts...however one wishes to quantify it, yes. Measurable and predictable differences can most certainly be inferred based solely on "ethnicity".
Next.
You could just admit that it used too many big words. I'd forgive you.
Please do.
Correlation does not equal causation - basic logic there. But please do show how it's more than a correlation. I'm anxious to watch your mental gymnatics and eventual failure.
Again:
If white is right - explain this. Shouldn't the Brits have had a society on par with the Romans? Or are Romans more white than Brits? Because I'm not sure how you quanify your superiority precisely.
It means sarcasm.... a lot of it. New to the vine?
It seems we are doomed to repeat history.
I would really love to hear from the confused people on the right, how the HELL the Left is like the Neo-Nazis.
Please. Enlighten me.
Try and use semantics to navigate around your obvious bias against people of color and fear of extraneous cultures and language and arrive at the conclusion that the Left is like these disgusting people.
Go ahead - give it a shot. I could use a laugh.
Have a nice day :)
Shuklak, most of the world would still be living in bamboo huts if not for evil white colonialism. The great cities of the world (except for Asia)-- all built by evil white colonialists, while those of Africa at least have been run into the ground by native populations. Those of the rest of the world not so much because the evil white colonialists are still pretty much in charge. As for the great cities of Asia-- all given electric lights, the other amenities of civilization, & in many cases indoor plumbing by evil white colonialists.
...so when you ask whether or not technological advancement can be inferred from ethnicity alone-- absolutely yes. Those who would argue the contrary betray a complete ignorance of history.
Life&LibertyDefender, your second post is the rudest I've seen. Not your first hypocrisy, based on your name.
The right wing has no high moral ground and certainly the left doesn't. Mostly because you have Life&Liberty type people on eithe side who now spew propaganda instead of thoughtful statements.
Neo-Nazis are first stupid, second potentially dangerous, and third interested in their own failure. But you get to think your part of something and wear a pretty symbol that marks you as a sociopath. Good trade-off.
Again - correlation does not equal causation. Basic logic 101 people.
I will pose the same challenge to you as I did John, please explain how ethnicity is more than just a correlation.
Did you know that there is a correlation between racism and low IQs? Who wants to bet which one of us can make a better argument to support that their correlation is also causative?
"Big words"?
Sure. JD assiduously details, and brilliantly so, I might add, civilizational ascension through a comprehensive cause and effect chain. No argument there. A rhyme and reason is given for every societal upswing, significant, small, and otherwise. Nothing was left to chance. Nothing, except the raison d'être for this, his most famed, authorial endeavor that is. That being- Sub-Saharan(most specifically) Africans, writes Diamond, are "products" of chance, of their geography, and the consequent weather systems and humanitarian circumstances it imposed. The irony is breath-taking, don't you see. His entire book is fully dedicated to attributing a tangible cause for every disturbed grain of sand, and yet, the reason THAT "blacks" originated from where they did, an isolated ecosystem not given to "progress"...? Chance. Happenstance. Dumb luck...is all Mr. Diamond can muster. No, Jared, there is something called evolutionary symbiosis, which suggests living things emerge where they do, and how they do, BECAUSE of WHERE they do. Understand? Of course "blacks" originated in this primitive, unforgiving "bubble". Simple people, whose genotypes were built for rugged survivalism, are born from this area with purpose- to optimally survive the harsh physical elements, and not anywhere else. "Simple"(not to be confused with uninteresting) land, simple people. Period.
Open your eyes, Obama is busy at work turning America into a facist police state right now with the NDAA indefinite detention act, giving control of everything over to his corporate cronies and at the same time he increases his socialist programs. If you think theres a difference between extreme right or left, then you're just delusional, it all has the same outcome, an Orwellian 1984 society.
A couple of points.
It was not just the Romans who invaded England, it was a succession of powerful white peoples. Those invasions ended England's isolation. They also provided the combination of great talents that made the English so powerful for so long. There were no inferior groups to weaken the genetic mix.
Second, Hitler was indeed a leftist. National Socialism, remember? Hitler believed in an all-powerful central government and no power among the people and in curtailment of dissident opinion. This is an accurate description of leftist convictions. Hitler and his crowd believed themselves anointed to make all the important decisions in the lives of citizens--a viewpoint held in our central government right now. But when that central U. S. government becomes unbearable, we will have no one to rescue us, as the German people did. So the choice is up to us. We will accept being told where we have to live, whom we are forced to live with, where we have to send our children to school, whom they have to go to school with, which students can't be given bad grades, whom to put at the front of the employment line and whom to send to the back, whom we have to admit to college and whom we cannot; and, when socialized medicine goes in, which doctors we have to go to--determined by racial quotas; and which people--as determined by race, not ability--are allowed to train for medical specialties. All medical care driven by politics, not by science. We will accept all this and worse, or we will rise to resist before it is too late.
So you are saying that it's their isolation that made them ethnically inferior to whites (and other non-isolated groups) - correct?
Again, it's isolation - not ethnicity that is the driving factor. All it takes is the sniff test: Put white people in the same sort of isolation - and you would have the same sort of results.

So the native Brits weren't white? That's convenient.
Lol this tired moronic argument again? Go read a book about the beginning of the Nazi party through to Hitler's rulership while considering the arbitrary nature of political party names compared to their policies.
Genetics. Distinguishable genetics. Observably(Imaging technology) different language centers in brains of those of different ethnicities. Any other questions? Also, stop with the "logic 101" business, because you are demonstrably wrong.
Racism? Represented by whom? A tattooed skinhead? And what form of overt racism does this supposed correlation reference? Statistically pertinent information, don't you think? Otherwise it's all meaningless deflection, as this sort of testing would require absolute honesty from a great cross-section of participants...which it doesn't. Does anyone REALLY know what Stephen Hawking thinks of "blacks"? I know what John Nash thinks of "blacks"...
And since you're so given to the IQ equation- did you know "blacks", for example, have a lower IQ than their Indo-European counterparts? True story. More facts to ruin your day.
From a simple article about a retired school teachers fight to eradicate neo-Nazi graffiti and hate grafity in her country , Germany,for which I congratulated her for, to the debate above, that in reality has nothing to do with the article or what this lady is doing.
I'll give you both an A for at least being respectful in your debate
But a C- for staying on point
mmm hmmm, please explain how 'distinguishable genetics' and different language centers in brains is a causative effect for an ethnicity's ability to progress.
I told you I'd enjoy watching you fail, looks like it didn't take long.
It references people's opinions on their racial superiorty and correlates that to their IQ scores. Those who felt they were superior to other races happened to have lower IQs on average compared to those who didn't think they were superior.
Not really, as I said - correlation does not equal causation. For a correlation to be shown as a causative factor - it needs to be enumerated. Your correlations are not enumerated, and thus far you have not been able to show that your correlations are causative. Instead you just point out 'differences' as if that actualy implies to causality. Try harder please.
Again, your limitations betray you...and to my great, and now-intolerant, impatience.
What didn't you understand about this- "No, Jared, there is something called evolutionary SYMBIOSIS, which suggests living things EMERGE(EVOLVE) where they do, and HOW they do, BECAUSE of where they do."
Night Hawk - It's just natural for people to respond to tangent issues raised on newsvine. That's just the normal progression of a discussion. It is interesting how these discussions develop sometimes. :)
Your mind-bending density would test the current limits of low-temperature physics, and the collective will of its practitioners.
Apparently, the implications of "differing" language centers escapes you completely. Not to mention explicit, and thus undeniable, differences in appearance, and what they may suggest about our respective evolutionary paths.
Here we go again:
Yes, I know(as I laugh mockingly at your incorrigible buffoonery)..."People's opinions"? What people? And what did I tell you about extracting absolute honesty from a wide-ranging test population?
You make this way too easy for me.
Next.
JK-4363698
I understand that and it can be constructive and like in this case interesting
Ah, let's just move the goalposts then, figured you would do that. No, I understand what that means - yet the conclusion you come to is non sequiter, as I have already pointed out.

Yes, they are different, I TOTALLY get that. I understand that this must really bother you, and it might be beyond your grasp as to why these differences do not bother me. But again - how are these differences causative, how do these differences make them inferior? What evidence is there that 'different language centers' impede an ethnicity's ability to succeed or even communicate?
Machinehead, blackdragon, adamfeeman, johndoh, and others:
Thanks for providing real life American examples of what this brave woman is combatting in Germany.
Sadly, too many mainstream politicians and media outlets have taken up your cause. Case in point: by far the most frequent and vocal 'opinions' on immigration in this country have been manufactured by organizations founded by Nazi admirers like John Tanton – the founder of NumbersUSA, 'FAIR', and the Center for Immigration 'Studies' – and repeated by mainstream Republican politicians like Mitt Romney and Fox News.
Your foolishness bears repeating...again:
No. Read again...and carefully. I'm saying they're an evolutionary(genetic) product of their "isolation"(ecosystem). Their pathology was mapped from their primitive, continental beginnings.
You just said it yourself, a wide-ranging test population. Do you like asking others questions and then answering them yourself?
Yes, since you fail to make a case as to what they imply. Please, imply.

Lol - you just essentially repeat the same thing twice, except I put in the caveat of inferiority because... well.. your stance is that they are inferior.
YOU read again, and carefully: I'm saying that YOU are saying they're an (inferior) genetic product of their 'isolation'. Does using the same sentence structure as you did help you comprehend?
Shuklack,
Thanks for a series of very impressive posts. I'd like to ask you to privately consider one thing (as opposed to immediately responding).
Why shouldn't employers be allowed to hire anyone they choose? Why can't we have an immigration system that ALLOWS people who come here to work and assimilate to DO SO, without waiting lines that last for decades, or silly quota systems designed to keep out exactly the people who want to come here and exactly the people who are being hired by American businesses.
All serious studies show that these unaurthorized immigrants work, pay taxes, stay out of trouble, attend church, contribute to their communities, and to the extent that they have children, make sure their children are educated and speak English. Their efforts EXPAND our economy and create jobs for citizens. Shouldn't they be citizens, too, provided they can show themselves to be upstanding and valuable members of our society?
And if not, why not? John Doh, machinehead, and others express their opposition quite clearly and eloquently.
So, in which parts of the world is it an evolutionary advantage to be less intelligent? In your opinion, that is.
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. And your clumsy verbiage isn't helping matters.
Allow me to simplify(out of necessity): JD believes "blacks" are in Africa by chance(Oh, the irony...). I don't. As I've said repeatedly, I believe they are as much a physical product of their "isolation" as fish are of water. Get it? Now respond directly. That "non sequiter" bit is just plain nonsense.
I'm still waiting for your direct, JD-defending counter-counterpoint. But I know it will never come. After all, you're an intellectual parrot. Which is to say, not too bright. You have to wait for someone else to do your thinking for you. Evidenced by the endless stream of deflective confusion that has filled each and every one of your posts.
So far his case has been they are 'inferior' (I'm not sure in what ways since he hasn't made that clear) because they are different (differences which he has indeed shared but failed to explain how they made someone inferior).
Oh no, I agree - but the problem is the demand for cheap labor results in illegal immigration and undocumented workers who don't pay taxes, with no rights, and are treated poorly. The reason they don't pay taxes is because the employer doesn't want to provide them with Taxpayer ID numbers (because that means the employer now has to pay taxes as well) nor does the employer want to respect workplace rules and regulations in order to save money. I understand this somewhat, agriculture especially isn't the most lucrative business for the farmer.
I think a better guest worker program would be great, and a smarter more efficient immigration system as well. Labor is such an important resource - I'm frankly amazed that people and some government officials actually seem to want to turn it away.
There is simply just a fine line between cheap labor and modern-age slavery that must be tread to ensure the demand that WILL be filled is filled while also doing all that is possible to ensure fairness and rights to those who are working.

One: You are assuming I have taken it upon myself to defend every one of JD's conclusions. That's quite a strawman you built for yourself there, nice armor against answering questions that are actually pertinent.
Two: I'm still waiting for you to answer these:
Great, nothing "belongs" to anyone. I'm going to save a bundle by moving myself and all my stuff into your house and let you pay all the bills. Oh, and by the way, I'll be taking your car too, be sure to get a fresh oil change for me. And since I'm so compassionate, I'm going to take all your money out of your bank and give it to people I know. What? It doesn't belong to you! Your house and property (and your wife perhaps) belong to EVERYONE, and we're ready to start using them.
And then we can all hold hands and sing together. Boy oh boy!
So you think that because you decide to designate people as being all the same, that there is no need for borders, countries or nations, and that people should NOT have the RIGHT to remain a nation-state if they choose? You are promoting tyranny and are no better than the Nazi's you presume to hate. Just because you hide behind terms of "compassion" and other modern buzz words like "diversity" and "equality" while you would willfully deny people the human right to live among their own kind doesn't make you benevolent. It makes you a hypocrite and an enabler of tyranny.
John, are you not aware that international Marxists like the Soviets have long promoted slogans like "workers of the world unite!" and have pushed for the abolishion of religion, and racial or cultural identification (to anything other than the state)? Look up the web site of the Communist Party USA (CPUSA). Their platform is virtually identical to the modern Democrat party. They claim to represent "equality" and consider themselves very "anti-racist".
For additional reading about the plans of communist subversives within our country, look up "The Naked Communist" and the 45 stated goals of communism for the United States. Many of the goals on this list have already happened.
John, your ad hominem attacks and constant references to my "poor verbiage" really only indicates that you have a weak argument, btw.
"Again"? The only "again" is your failure to read...or willingness to ignore what has already disproven your feeble attempts at argumentative relevancy. Notice, I wrote much earlier about the muscle fiber differences. This allows "blacks" an athletic disposition so that they may successfully hunt for food and fend off predators, simply speaking. The evolutionary flipside- their average, comparative intelligence suffers. Thus making assimilation into Euro-modeled societies(which have different socio-cultural manifestations. One being mass-produced food) an often difficult transition. Even as free and full citizens. Go to Vienna. Then go to Abuja. The come back and report on some of those "different socio-cultural manifestations". I'll wait.
One love, one heart..................
Let's get together and feel all right. :)
Don't confuse earlier American immigration with that going on now. The conditions of the times and the natures of the groups are too different. You can't argue that the achievements of the one validate the other.
Diversity in population is not necessarily a strength. It depends on the ingredients.
Most Americans are descended from settlers, not immigrants. The settlers got a head start on populating the place, so we are mostly a nation of settler descendants not immigrant descendants. The settlers were the people who cleared the wilderness, fought the Revolution, and established the country's institutions. The immigrants came later.
There is now evidence that white peoples were in North America even before what we call native Americans. The history of the continent is much more complex than Indian tribes will admit.
Correlation does not always indicate causation, but sometimes it does. When you see mosquitoes hanging around areas with yellow fever, your see a correlation that later can be demonstrated as causative.
We will never know much about the relations among ethnicity and ability because the study of this is forbidden or ignored or outright banned. There is probably a great deal to learn here, but we will never learn it. We have some persuasive correlations, but can never improve on them.
There are a few "black history" books that promote various fairy tales about ancient Africa without any supporting evidence. To accept those books as true, you have to be indifferent to evidence or subscribe to some strange definitions of "great civilizations."
When you feel that people who disagree with you are evil, you sometimes are revealing how heavily you have been propagandized by certain interest groups. You may not even realize how much you've bought into what has been preached to you. Think about it.
Shuklack, when you recover from undergraduate overconfidence, you can learn a lot and become a good thinker. Perhaps you are old enough to be over yourself anyway.
So, athletic people are stupid? That's your argument?

You also can't argue that it invalidates it either.

Yes, what's important is being able to demonstrate it..
Pre-historic Africa, that's where...because physical prowess, which preceded higher intelligence, was an immutable evolutionary dictate. And not to be confused with a "return to Africa", bringing with it the benefit of years of evolution.
Silly person, the logical fallacy imposed by your failed snark escapes you completely. I pity you.
Good job there, granny
I hate graffitti, all types
it's too bad she can't come to America and help us get rid of the all the crap sprayed around by the gang-bangers and their ilk
...it's just as offensive and disgusting
John Doh thinks he's 100% right and everyone else is 100% wrong. The very definition of an extremist and Faux News. In John Doh's world people like Steven Hawkings would be shot for not being physically perfect.
Since you're operating on the assumption that an evolutionary pathway that promotes athleticism must also demote intelligence, I'd have to say, that's quite a leap.

Could you explain for me how the evolutionary pathway of white people (after they broke off from their African ancestors of course) demoted athleticism and promoted intelligence, as well... I'm curious as to when we started getting so much better than black people.
Well, that shut you up...except for this bit of cringe-inducing inanity-
The masses really are quite the burden.
Just an observation, right wing, far right wing, extremist, etc... it's interesting how many times the writer of this article says these phrases. You read nothing about left wing, extremist or otherwise and that is odd. As the German people well know, the NAZIPARTY was the National Socialist Republic Party, where one man took over everything and eliminated anyone who disagreed with him, permitting Big Government to take over all industry (facisim), the schools, even the children. Here in the States, we do not like Facisim or Big Government. We do not like one man, even the President, to take over industries (fireing the CEO of GM and putting in a puppet.), the Banks (Forcing them to loan to who and at what rates he defines), taking over the Schools (providing support only for the Teacher's Unions, never for the taxpayers he forces to support them as well.) and our children (His cohorts force feeding songs of adoration to Obama and having them sing them.). We here believe those are extreme left wing fanatics. Although this article chooses to idenify the perpitrators of these acts to be Extreme Right Wing, this Teacher is actually fighting the same battle we fight here daily!
And as you seem to be unaware - the National Socialist Party started before Hitler and became right-wing fascism as Hitler came into power. Fascism is extremely opposed to Communism, which would be far left wing.

Thanks, I agree that your argument truly is cringe-inducing inanity.
First, it's Stephen Hawking, not "Steven Hawkings"...assuming you're referring to the famed physicists. So, once again, I'm "100% right", and you- "100% wrong". Also, you did notice I included him in one of my earlier posts, right? And in a positive, even if obliquely, light, yes? So your "perfection" posit is totally without merit.
As for "faux news"- did you not notice where I mention that "all of the Republican party"(in addition to "most of the Democrats") was to blame for our economic woes. Hardly a "faux news" acolyte. Not even close.
"Extremist"? No, just a scientifically-based explication of why blacks are better at basketball. Essentially.
And why they're automatically worse at math, don't forget that part John. I suppose those smart black people out there that aren't good at basketball must have some white genes in them... that's the only way to explain it. /s/
I never asked those questions. But you did.
See, just another example of your glaring inferiority.
Everyone. Please give a warm welcome our Resident "Intelligent" Bigots Sub-dude-1750783 and! John,Doh.
There here to prove how Genetics, Social Settings, and Demographs - make the "population"!
Really? Really?!? For all that brain power you two "have" you make a mockery of the very thing you all love to Stand by - Intelligence.
If Arrogance, Blindness, Hate-Breeding and "Broad-Painting" are what you two Consider Intellect, your damn right Id rather take my chances - in Africa than deal with your " Genetics superiority Shtick". Hope off your high-horses already, Use your brain for good but then again...I consider Steven Hawking a Racist - that's a topic for another day, however.
I realize, you two will continue your trash and very Likely I will be talked down to. Either way thats my slice of the pie, Shuklack. Please continue to curb-stomp these two.
But that's your argument.... that an evolutionary pathway that promotes athleticism makes those on that pathway dumb, and that somehow during this time white people got onto a pathway that didn't promote as much athleticism for some reason but made them smart somehow.
So therefore they are da mostest superiorist............. except for the Asians, who are even less athletic and even more smartest!
Seriously, if your argument is true, you are basically saying that whites are thus inferior to Asians, as blacks are inferior to Whites. You realize this, correct?

Unfortunately I only have a few minutes left today, but it was fun while it lasted.
"Automatically" is your word, not mine.
Dictionary time: "Averages", "statistically exceptional", and yes, "miscegenation", etc...the list goes on. But (fortunately)unfortunately, my patience and willingness to educate does not.
Just an FYI Schmuck oops, Shuk, no where did I say "Hitler" however, if by your comment you wish to disagree that Hitler ran the NAZIPARTY, please show me your evidence! If your argument is that NAZIS weren't Scocialist, but instead right-wing, what is your definition of right-wing? Is it that you don't believe Hitler believed in controlling all the industry in Germany? He didn't authorize rounding up people who did not agree with them and sicking his government agencies on them (SS, etc.)? I don't see how any of that is right wing. In fact just the opposit! I was always taught that a Communist Society is derived from word "community", where all reap equal benefits from the whole and no one is above the rest (regardless of his talents or gifts). To me, that definition most resembles, sounds like the definition of Socialism! To each according to their needs, from each according to their ability to pay. Nothing like right wing which is about individual responsibility, freedom, liberty, etc.
Obviously you were referring to the Nazi party under Hitler, not before Hitler. I was pointing out that there was indeed a Nazi party before Hitler, and that it was different. So your reference to the "National Socialists" as not being right-wing fascists only applies to a small window of time before Hitler.
The Nazi Socialist Party was as Socialist as the Democratic Republic of Congo is Democratic.
Ah right right.... that ol' fallback. Good job, this debate is over, you have officially played the "losing the argument" card. Good day, happy hating.
Life, you consider "Your right schoolyard and read any article about Israel and you will see''Hitlers idiotic ideas'' alive and well among leftists and sociopaths posting on newsvine," to be civil? I give you what you asked for.
Good job everybody..john's a jackass...If Africans are weak mentally as a direct cause of their brain formation, wouldn't that mean that every blood-line has a weakness and if that were in fact true would not mixing with everybody suppress that weakness. So what's John Does weakness?? small wang? can't pull any hoes for reproduction? anything other than the fact that he's an ignorant ass that eventually will die alone because no one can stomach his know-it-allness. We all die alone, but at least we're dumb enough to have people love us. But anyway John, since you think for yourself, what's Germany's problem?England, China, Russia and all the other countries? People like you are the problem with society. You think you know better because you read a few books. Human experience triumphs over any learning method, and that's why you have twenty people arguing you. Because your lack of real I mean real human experience you have the brain, but you don't have the logic. Being smart doesn't make you the best and it definitely doesn't mean you should believe everything that comes out of your own mouth. Learn to question yourself. But if you could answer those peoples questions you avoided, I'll start reading about how to fix my car instead of fixing it.
I'm going to ignore the stumbling re-presentation of what you claim to understand regarding "my argument", because I'm not entirely sure you're grasping it on a level that I deem acceptable, and instead, I'm going to allow the record, my words especially, to speak for themselves.
But this-
...I will gladly address. In the interest of full disclosure, I adore the Japanese people. And if they believe themselves to be "da mostest superiorist"(which I believe they already may) in all of the world...then I wouldn't discount the possibility of eventually, and unequivocally, accepting that notion as "fact". It may very well be true, quantifiably speaking. However, the people who gave us Newton, Gauss, Einstein, Schopenhauer, and many, many others, aren't quite ready to marginalize themselves any time soon. Besides, workable cooperation is always more productive than ego-driven competition. Meanwhile, the white/black-white/asian parallel is totally absurd, as the respective disparities(and I'm not even sure that's been officially established in the white/asian realm) are in completely different universes.
nothing like an articles about a brave woman standing up to nazis to bring out the racists.
Answered.
No need to tell me what I wrote- my brilliance is there for all of us to read- and especially when you're clumsily misrepresenting my irreproachable musings. Next time just read more carefully.
This is a moderated(get it?)news thread, not a dissertation, though I've been exceptionally generous throughout. If you're that interested, then use that near-infinite reservoir of information that sits before you and find out for yourself. An elliptical medium such as this ponderously slow comments section isn't given to such pontification. Start googling. And prepare to slink disappointedly into your chair.
See above.
Answered.
John, here's a couple of objective scientific facts. The more diversified is a gene pool, the stronger it is, mentally and physically. Another fact is that if you go back far enough in evolution, ALL of our ancestors were black and in Africa.
I suspect you think you are smarter than President Obama? He is the very model of success for someone coming from a rather poor background. I prefer my president to be much smarter than me. I can see by the Republican candidates now running for President (and from the last President) that the conservative base likes their President to be at least as ignorant as they, and hate the same people/groups.
Obozo is a Model of Success? Looking around the state of this country, I am seeing a lot of evidence of his activities, and I suppose he's been successful in them, but I'm not seeing much GOOD coming from it.
But we're getting off the track of this article. I want to congratulate this teacher. She is a brave woman, doing what she believes in and SUCCEEDING. THAT is success in my view.
An unfortunate case of "a little learning is a dangerous thing". Yours was not a "scientific fact", at least not the way you presented it...missing parameters and such.
And? What's your point? This doesn't contradict anything I wrote...or think. Although, "ancestors" is misused.
Statistically speaking, I'm smarter than most people. As for Obama, I couldn't say for sure...but probably. By the way, I voted for Obama. That's right, I VOTED FOR OBAMA. Like the previous election, I intended to vote for Nader, but ultimately decided not to "waste" my vote. We'll see.
Yes, I was happy for him. A fine American indeed. Maybe even THE quintessential, post-20th century American success story...that republicans are hypocritically all too eager to bash.
I agree. Not sure what this has to do with me though, as I unambiguously disavowed the Republican party in several earlier comments. But you're most certainly entitled.
I appreciate your points, however, I do not agree that "ancestors" was misused. Recall that I said that if you go "back far enough in evolution." I'm saying that humans have an African origin. I did, however, misjudge you in some ways, however, you do come across as quite arrigant.
I will point to one of your comments that is completely wrong, however. "First, there is no 'Texas' or 'California' without the evolved Euro-modeled ideas infused into the U.S. constitution." Actually, it was conquest (killing and taking) that made all of it possible, not Euro-modeled ideas for government.
John,Doh
Shuklack
I thought you would enjoy the following tidbit with links.
While it is standard practice to blame the gap in scholastic achievement between whites and non-whites on lack of funding for schools, poor socio-economic status of parents, poor nutrition, or even culturally related, but despite all efforts that have been made to date, the scholastic gap remains.
(Read the article by Pedro A. Noguera and Antwi Akom ) http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/pnaa.html
Consider the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_Differences_in_Intelligence_(book)
Race Mean I.Q Mean brain size (cc)
East-asians (China, Taïwan, Japan, Korea)
105 1416
Europeans
100 1369
South-est asians
90 1332
Pacific Islanders
85 1317
South Asians and North africans
84 1293
Africans
67 1282
Australian aborigines
62 1225
John, Doh
Could you better explain your understanding of Guns, Germs, and Steel? This books seem to rub your paradigm the wrong way. As I read your post and it seems you are not arguing with other posters so much and with G,G,&S; it seems you have read the book, but as I have also read the book I am confused to many of your assertions as to the conclusions of Jared Diamond. I am confident I do not understand the book the way you do, so some clarification would help better understand your points. For a point of reference I will share what I understand of G,G, &S. JD is suggesting that it is not racial supremacy that explains why one race (white) has come to dominate the most of the modern world, but more evolutionary happenstance. If these different groups could have been located in other parts of the word they would of had (because their biology doesn't confer some inferiority) an equal chance of becoming just as dominate as those that currently inhabit their piece of this of this earth. I believe he also knows that this is a hypothetical argument that for evolutionary reasons they could not have developed somewhere else, as they are a product of their evolutionary environment, but he would argue that the differences conferred by nature do not make them inferior to other groups who's evolutionary environment required a different set of evolutionary tools. I know, I know the fittest survive and therefore, "the proof is in the pudding"; the world would not be the way it is if your assertions were not true.
Your possible conflagration of Evolutionary Darwinism and Social Darwinism is often a neat trick (allowing for circular logic) and can confuse those who understand evolution and makes the racism more palatable because it is logical science , right?
John, Doh
Could you better explain your understanding of Guns, Germs, and Steel? This books seem to rub your paradigm the wrong way. As I read your post and it seems you are not arguing with other posters so much and with G,G,&S; it seems you have read the book, but as I have also read the book I am confused to many of your assertions as to the conclusions of Jared Diamond. I am confident I do not understand the book the way you do, so some clarification would help better understand your points. For a point of reference I will share what I understand of G,G, &S. JD is suggesting that it is not racial supremacy that explains why one race (white) has come to dominate the most of the modern world, but more evolutionary happenstance. If these different groups could have been located in other parts of the word they would of had (because their biology doesn't confer some inferiority) an equal chance of becoming just as dominate as those that currently inhabit their piece of this of this earth. I believe he also knows that this is a hypothetical argument that for evolutionary reasons they could not have developed somewhere else, as they are a product of their evolutionary environment, but he would argue that the differences conferred by nature do not make them inferior to other groups who's evolutionary environment required a different set of evolutionary tools. I know, I know the fittest survive and therefore, "the proof is in the pudding"; the world would not be the way it is if your assertions were not true.
Your possible conflagration of Evolutionary Darwinism and Social Darwinism is often a neat trick (allowing for circular logic) and can confuse those who understand evolution and makes the racism more palatable because it is logical science , right?
In a Democratic Republic like we live in, why shouldn't people be allowed to be xenophobic? As long as violence and discrimination of fellow citizens is prohibited. Under the ideals of Democracy, isn't it essential to govern by the will of the people? And if the will of the majority is to limit the influx of certain cultures, outside of the moral merit of such a principle, why shouldn't it be allowed? After all don't the same left leaning politicians who espouse immigration amnesty also say that we have no right to legislate morality?
I read G,G,&S as well, and it was clear to me that it wasn't genetics that made the difference in any groups technological advances, but location.
Mitty,
Yes people can be xenophobic, and yes the law already prohibits the physical expression of that belief. Yes, Democracy is done by a rule of the people, and therefore the majority wins. But, I you noted at the beginning or your comment we have a Democratic Republic, to add it is ruled by our Constitution. Under said Constitution the rights of the minority are protected making our government not a true democracy of the people. We can set quality standard for immigrants, or limitation on types of visa, but this should be merit or security based; not xenophobic.
Mitty, no one is keeping you from being xenophobic, just as no one is keeping you from being ignorant. I don't used "ignorant" in the pejorative, but in the sense of simply lacking the information that leads to understanding.
Duly noted, appreciated, and accepted.
Your misguided pedantry aside...no, there is no "California" or "Texas"- stable, organizational entities known as governance- without the Euro-modeled/born U.S. Constitution. Conquests may clear indigenous populations and allow for land acquisitions, but it doesn't a "state" make...<with this being the pertinent aspect of my original post. A comprehensive history lesson it wasn't intended to be.
Hobbes' Notes
And yet you demonstrate pure ignorance in your statement. Did I ever say that I wanted to limit any culture? Where do you infer that I am xenophobic? At least thrakenglarv addressed my questions in an intelligent, non-insultive way. I was merely posing the question of the rights of the people over the imposition of a moral stance. Do you know who my friends, family and associates are? Do you even know which culture I come from, and which cultures I engage with? No, you suppose that I personally am xenophobic, because I question whether or not the people of the United states should be allowed to enact xenophobic immigration policy.
To thrakenglarv, I do agree with your opinion on immigration standards. I beleive it should be entirely merrit and security based, and race/ethnicity/religion should have no weight whatsoever. But if we are in the minority, should we be allowed to impose our views on the majority just because we feel we are right?
@thrakenglarv
Peace-loving man, as much as I recognize and appreciate the sincere and earnest treatment given to your inquiry, I neither have the time, or patience, to indulge this exchange any further. As it is demanding an ever-expanding volume of hand-holding explication. Evidenced by your current and formidable confusion. Case in point:
"Conflagration"? I believe you mean "conflation". And no, not "right". "Social Darwinism" has exactly zero to do with my "paradigm". There is no "neat trick", and the only "circular logic" is your (tale)tail-chasing post.
Godspeed.
Mitty,
I understand your concern about the imposition of the will of the minority over that of the majority. I, however, am hard pressed to find instances where our county has gone horribly astray in protecting the minority versus the majority. The minority only has the right to demand the rights of the majority and that is what our Constitution protects. I realize in our hyperbolic and vitriolic news media drive understanding of things we often are led to believe that people on both sides of the political isle are seeking super-constitutional rights, this is most often just red meat for their audiences. I may not agree with a minority, but it is their right to petition the government and to challenge the law in court if they believe they are Constitutionally disadvantaged.
John, Doh (in a Homer Simpson voice cause it makes me giggle)
Thank you for the insults, they are a much clearer understanding your world view than the much better answers to my questions. Lets see......what are the rules of conversation and debate...... the first to result to name calling and insults loses the debate, right? Oh yes my mistaken spelling and poor typing skills allow you too dismiss me as a intellectual inferior, which coincidentally lines up with (yes) your paradigm of the "World According to Doh" (Homer Simpson,again.) As for your Social Darwinism claim, you did make the IQ vs physicality claim, yes? You mentioned the fast twitch response of Africans and the higher IQ scores of Europeans, which are classical arguments of Social Darwinism. A rose is a rose by any other name.
What a wonderful lady. I am so glad that she gets people to help and I hope people help her without being asked as well. I am pleased to hear that one of the people who were against her thanked her. It shows a lot of strength to face an opponent and practically say ‘I was wrong’.
People have a right to be xenophobs, sure, as long as they are not discriminative. But I that is like saying, it’s ok to be a murderer, just don’t kill anyone. Sooner or later you leave a murderer alone and they are going to kill someone. Why should we not persuade them to not be a murderer or like any fear help them get over it.
I have read with great interest the conversation between John, Doh and Shuklack. Now, I have to admit, I am confused.
I keep coming back to the same group of questions, drawn from the arguments above:
(Please understand, in posing these questions, I am setting aside my own beliefs and drawing from my understanding of the preceding discussion. I am also setting aside my questions about the factual basis for the comparatively higher intelligence theory.)
I will freely admit that I have no training whatsoever in logical or debate, but I am a reasonably intelligent person, and yet for the life of me, I can’t understand the logic of John’s argument.
Sorry about the giant type, above. That was supposed to be bullet-pointed in the same type, but I can't seem to edit it.
.
John d,Oh..please choose another vowel.... non sequitUr: since you are occupying most of this post, try spelling correctly! RES IPSA LOQUITUR ! !
@JohnDuh, your self-annointed delusional omnipotence isn't fooling anythone. But you may get a job at Faux News so please continue to impress yourself while the world laughs.
Correct. Natural Selection Chooses the best from both parents and the offspring are (Technically speaking lets use johns word) "Superior".
Are we to infer that, in your view, there's only so much room for 'good stuff' on human chromosomes, so that if one has more genetically induced "physical prowess", there is no room left for things like 'higher intelligence'?
And because there are no lions or carnivorous giraffes in Europe, the human genome altered itself to REDUCE physical prowess (and youthful testosterone) so that there could be more 'intelligence' as people left Africa?!?!
You obviously do a lot of reading, but you should try to broaden your horizons. Garbage in, garbage out.
And for the guy who made a list of average 'brain sizes' and IQ scores by geographic region, it reminds me of some of the tripe found in anti-immigrant, Nazi-admirer John Tanton's magazines and other 'white supremecist' writers who claim there is an inverse proportionality between intelligence and the size of the male genitalia.
What are those guys telling us about themselves? (And why on Earth do they want us to know?)
Shuklack-- Regarding your comment, "put white Europeans in the same situation & you'd get the same result", Africans allegedly failed to develop a civilization or many of the artifacts thereof because (1) they lived in fairly isolated groups on a continent that was (2) overgrown with dense vegetation & overrun with dangerous wildlife, & (3) oriented primarily in a North-South direction, meaning that inventions that were useful in one area didn't diffuse well to others.
Primitive Europeans (1) lived in fairly isolated groups on a continent that was (1) the smallest of all the continents, (2) organized in terms of multiple fairly isolated peninsulae, (3) overgrown with dense vegetation (some of the densest forests in the world) & overrun with dangerous wildlife (bears, wolves, boars, & the European lion-- now extinct), & (4) isolated by large bodies of water & by large, trackless wilderness from all of the other world centers of population.
Primitive Europeans united their fairly isolated groups, often by conquest. They built roads thru the forests, killed off the dangerous wildlife, built boats & ships to traverse the bodies of water, & established trading routes like the Silk Road to exchange goods with distant population centers. They also prospered thru invention, often adapting the inventions of others to their own purposes. Africans did none of this. In fact, even though they've been shown the way by example now for hundreds of years, they still do very little of it today.
Similar situations-- very different results. Case closed.
This one is manageable, because you indeed appear to be a "reasonably intelligent person".
Swaggien Leigh,
Yes, when hunting and gathering is the primary mode of survival. But this is a discussion regarding cognitive abilities, and implicitly, its own constellation of survivalistic manifestations. That should've been apparent by comment #1.97. What was it you(and I) were saying about a certain "reasonably intelligent person"?
And? That was already mentioned, even if implicitly. Yes, physical prowess diminished(to the point of necessity...naturally...as dictated by evolutionary theory) as intelligence evolved upward and onward(quite literally).
"Allow for nature to select for both physical and mental superiority"? You have some brushing up to do on your evolutionary biology studies. Here's a kicking off point- "additive genetic effect".
And no, it wouldn't. Pairing superior minds(those naturally attracted to each other), both with strong, uncompromised immune systems are what make for an ever-evolving humanity. Unless you value large sloping foreheads...still wouldn't matter though, as those who do would eventually be rooted out of the gene pool. Mind you, "Europeans" aren't exactly decrepit weaklings...for those especially concerned with that other "evolutionary flipside".
Any other questions? I sure hope not.
Wrong. It wasn't a spelling or typing error...it was a contextual error. Also, I never dismissed you as an "intellectual inferior".
Not really. Pretty average in that regard actually. But no question, mine is an inherent and fierce intelligence.
No.
My otherwise stubborn will is now faltering...anyone else want to take this one^? Please.
In addition to my shirt, I am also too sexy for this maddeningly burdensome thread.
John,
Unless I misunderstand the definition of dismissive:
"I neither have the time, or patience, to indulge this exchange any further. As it is demanding an ever-expanding volume of hand-holding explication. Evidenced by your current and formidable confusion. Case in point:
"Conflagration"? I believe you mean "conflation". And no, not "right". "Social Darwinism" has exactly zero to do with my "paradigm". There is no "neat trick", and the only "circular logic" is your (tale)tail-chasing post."
This was a example of a dismissive answer, I asked for more information and this is what I got. Not the answer I asked for, but an retort of intellectual pride and a dissection of my errors (which was not necessary as you clearly understood my meaning.)
Not correct. And the word "superior" never originated with me. 0 for 2.
What you are "misunderstanding" is your original comment-
To which I said- "I never dismissed you as an 'intellectual inferior' "...which is most certainly not the same this as being dealt ONE "dismissive answer".
Understand now?
Although, if you keep posting replies such as this one, I just may decide to dismiss you as an intellectual inferior.
Then use it to explain how sub-Saharan Africa makes lower intelligence a survival trait, because you haven't even come close, except for that nonsense about physical prowess being necessary, which you now disavow as being mutually exclusive with intelligence.
If physical prowess and intelligence are not mutually exclusive, why would 'less intelligent' people 'evolve' in one location rather than another, given that human groups interact and consist of only one species, and not several 'races'.
I'm not sure what "Faux News" has to do with me, but I know I have nothing to do with it. By the way, did you notice I VOTED FOR OBAMA. So time to change the broken record. Of course, that would require actual thought, which is where your troubles usually begin.
I said no such thing. Do not attempt to speak for me.
It's a matter of degree, and not mutual exclusivity.
Yours is an impenetrable density.
dismissive: indicating lack of interest or approbation; scornful; disdainful.
Pretty sure that comes along with a side of (in this case) intellectual superiority and the inverse for me of intellectual inferiority. If that was not your intent I apologize for the misunderstanding. Might I suggest a more friendly approach to post. For example: do not do this...it makes you seem petty and mean.
Ah yes the parsing of words (always a winner.) You will say what you mean and when I ask you, You will deflect with..... well that is not exactly what I said(a la Bill Clinton)...a careful look at my words and you will see your mistake.....these are not the words you are looking for (a la Star Wars).....you just misunderstand my intent...I am not responsible for your inability to understand me.... (aka without saying the words: I am smarter than you, I am intellectually contemptuous your answers.) I have seen you use this argument against a number of post today, it seem to be your go to. You are very bright, this style of conversation is beneath you.
I said what I said, and I meant what I meant...and I meant what I said, and I said what I meant(Dr. Seuss)...since you're given to the pop-culture references. Meanwhile, there's no parsing of words here, if you or anyone misrepresents or misunderstands what I wrote, then I say as much. Period. See, my words are brimming with specificity, and my expectation is that those who bother to read them employ the same sort of assiduous focus that I invested in writing them. That's all.
Fascinating debate between two greater-than-average minds! Kudos to both of you: John,Doh and Shuklack. This is something I don't see often on the 'interwebz'.
Unfortunately for you both, you delved into a discussion that yields no possibility for an irrefutable conclusion. You see, proving that something can happen is not the same as proving that something does happen; proving that something does happen is not the same as proving that something did happen. Therefore, your postulations on the correlation between ethnicity and intellect is silly: there are simply too many variables to consider and not enough data from past to present to come to a conclusive determination.
That having been said...Fire away, boys. Fire away.
Note to any forthcoming internet heroes- my loading/refresh time is growing intolerably slow, so if you have any questions, comments, or insults, post now.
Ahhh, but your modesty far exceeds your imitation logic.
Some red dye #2 with that?
Not half the burden of a handful of extremists in the world. It may seem the masses are dumb, but extremists are worse because they think they know it all - concentrated dumb. Omnipotent like Nazis.
We're getting on Stephen Hawking again? lol Check out the comments on the article about Hawking needing an assistant.
Anybody who continues to support either one of the US 2 party dictatorship clearly is not thinking. But regardless your omnipotent style smacks of Murdoch-ism.
@Imatthebeach,
"...Stephen Hawking needing an assistant."?
A genius with ALS (who has survived many, many more years than anyone imagined)?
And to be clear, it's not just my opinion Hawking is a genius, but almost every other physicist on the planet.
What, exactly was your point? Or were you, again, just trying to play the fool?
@Boris (when did you misplace your sense of humor and have you looked for it?),
You're out of the loop. A few weeks back many of us here were fast and furious on an article about Stephen Hawking advertising for an assistant to maintain the twitch-activated voice software he uses. It was very enlightening..........and entertaining. Entertainment--you should try it sometime.
Or did you completely miss the reference to Hawking in the comments above because you have no interest in what anyone else thinks and post here only to gratify yourself with behaving in a condescending manner and insulting others?
Get a life...........or at least search for the article so you'll know what you're getting on me about all the time. What's your problem? Mad because you don't live at the beach? Your life and life with you must be very, very dull.
Lighten up.
commonsense....,
little and late, but thumb up!
The only benefits africans have is short distance runs. If you look at the Olympics you can see evolution at work blacks evolved where predators ate the slowest in the short distance runs, and races that evolved in the colder lands in the strength/swimming events.
Africa had plentiful food and the only evolutionary forces where predators and widespread tropical diseases. Those who where faster and had more kids did better. Today 43% of black 8yo girls have hit puberty while other races are only a fraction of that. In africa a single mom wouldnt need a dad to help with kids until after western medicine took care of the diseases. IQ would only be a benefit there after reaching bronze age tech and most of sub-sahara africa was still in the stone age 400yrs ago.
Europe/Asia had winters where food would not grow for months. Being stronger/smarter/better organized was favored genetically. Men had to support their offspring, babydaddys and rapists would be genetic dead ends. Those who built better structures, farmed better, stored food safer, and planned better could have more children in Europe/Asia. If you go to highland games you will see a white man throw a tree farther than a black man can jump.
With the flood of Islamic immigration in Europe, they could end up under Sharia law in a few years. I could see why that would make some people nervous. While I lived in Florida, I met this lady on my street who was English. She left England because of too much immigration from Islamic countries, and she feared the future there; so she left for the U.S.
I do not care what color people are; it is the culture they bring with them. I don't like the importing of these third world ideologies. I expect immigrants to become Americans. After all, if they want their old way, they should stay where they are. I expect Germany may be facing a situation like this. Because Nazism was in their history, they can very easily turn in that direction one day as a cure to the threat of encroaching Sharia, etc. This article exposes the fact that such could happen. The fact that there are thousands and thousands of Neo-Nazi stickers, etc. means that that point of view is held by a significant portion of Germans. Any day could come a tipping point.
Even here in the U.S., especially since the Boston Bombing, I hear more talk of forbidding the immigration of people from Muslim countries. The terrorism problem has inflamed things.
She leads by example, good, life-sustaining, courageous example.
I love this lady.
Sure does. God bless her.
We need more people like her in the world.
Yes, let us hire her to come to Washington (Congress) or ND, SD, MN, Co, NC,SC, MA--and of course Milwaukee.
For someone here to call our current President a fascist, there is a need for some major clean up, here on this blog, compared to the Muslim "clean up" of at least 1,500,000 by the recent Hittler Apprentice, and we are not talking about Sadam, but we could include him also--same difference to the dead people!!
It is interesting to see how many blogs have been dropped here, I first thought we have all this freeedom called free speach--I used to be a pilot, and I really like both wings but could it be the "right Wing"upset about their usual defamatory comments about those who are not completely white here--like Milwaukee types!---I have never seen so many K-es as out there!
Fantastic Lady, and I have seen this garbage in Berlin, and Paris!
They are probably trying to mask their own predilection for fascistic policies.
You probably think obuma deserved the nobel peace prize
Good for her, brave, courageous and different, simple but effective. She's right there can't be a blind eye to bullies and extremism, believing in violence whether they be Al Quaeda, Neo Nazis, home grown militants, violent drug cartels, gang violence, violent anti abortionists, Mao's symbols, political and religious zealots using violence, etc. Peaceful movements, clear and rational voice should be the call of the day. Brave woman.
When I was a college student, I visited one of the concentration camps. It was one of the worst days of my life and I believe that I had walked into hell itself. The camp I visited was Mauthausen, where they "specialized" in gassing the handicapped as well as Jews and anybody who resisted Hitler. Words can't describe the horror I experienced that day, even though it was decades later after the fact. Since then, I too have dedicated my life doing all that I can, through prayer and teaching, to make sure that this nightmare never happens again. All of us need to be vigilant and all of us, like this very brave woman, need to take a stand against the evil that still exists in the world. Especially hate groups like the Neo-Nazis. My prayer is that they will find something to love and cherish, instead of hate and destroy.
Peace.
In the movie "Gentleman's Agreement" with Gregory Peck posing as a Jew to do investigative journalism on anti-Semitism in America, his old Army buddy, a Jew, tells Peck's girlfriend that there is another problem. That is the many "good intentioned" people who sit by while others tell anti-Semitic or rascist jokes and stories and say nothing. It reminds me of Gretchen Carlson on Fox News (?) listening the Glen Beck talk about President Obama's "problem with White people".
Glenn Beck got all the material for that particular show from Berry Sotero's own book.
do you feel silly now?
Relax Chumbkt. Maybe VACYMRO did not know Glen Beck got the material from other sources.
A person saying someone else is racists, is not the same things as that person being racist. Why don't you look up the definition of racist. Many people get this wrong.
Impatient girl..
They're not getting it wrong. This is not some innocent mistake.
It's the new tactic by people who are trying to remain vicariously racist without suffering any of the indignity or stigma of being a racist. Typically these statements are made by people who are too painfully stupid to realize that they are just regurgitating the nonsensicle rhetoric that's been promulgated by people like Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh.
Often, the very same people will claim you're denying them their right to free speech when you point out that they are denying whole segments of society THEIR freedom of speech and right to exist.
It's the hallmark of the weak minded.
Here's something else they do:
They'll simultaneously and glibly suggest that those on the receiving end of White supremacy should "Stop being so sensitive" or "Grow some thick skin," while whining pathetically about being accused of being racists.
It's all so precious. But, as you see from this story, it's not to be taken lightly or dismissed as "personal preference."
The demons of our past are rearing their ugly heads once again - with the help of the same cast of characters.
Have a nice day.
It's a sure sign that a bigot fears losing an argument, when they accuse someone of playing the "race card".
It's also well known that one of the best rhetorical defenses is to project your own shortcomings onto your opponent. Hence, the 'white' supremecist accuses President Obama of being a racist and "hating 'White' people".
Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh: two college dropouts with substance abuse problems who refuse to let drug addiction, a lack of education, ignorance, bigotry, or the truth get in the way of great wealth.
For instance, Glen Beck gets most of his 'information' on immigration from organizations founded by Nazi-admirer John Tanton, who wants to import the "genetics" policies of the Third Reich to the United States.
This exists in this country as well. My daughter was to go on a field trip to the Holocaust Museum in Washington. A parent of one of the other students wrote a letter to the teacher that his kid was not to go "because the Jews had it coming".
May God have mercy on that family.
Peace.
VACYMRO
I wonder what the parents, of this other child, is going to do when someone decides, that they have it coming?
Yes, I have the same type of letters about the ARAB TYPE, not just Muslims.
Mostly created by US "selected media comments", to prepare the regular Jo's (majority) to accept the attacks all over this globe, so they seem justified, thus the reason we got attacked 911 the only way they could. But you have to be in the know to see it that way, and it is mostly only outside US people that can understand why we really had 911!--There are a few more 5 % now I think who is finally starting to see why we get in trouble!--but only the ones who actually know what is going on and is not just listening to Fox!
I feel sorry for that child.
When the holocaust museum opened in DC there where people protesting outside. They where jews protesting that gypsys, communists, gays, & political prisoners where also mentioned as being in the camps
What an enormous waste of time. Remove the stuff - or ignore it... whats the difference? What I see here is someone on her own little crusade. She counts the stickers - its not about removing grafitti or doing good for the community - its about recognition. I do not care how many stickers you remove. If you believe its the right thing to do - then remove the stickers and shut up. No one cares. This is some kind of encomium article that I find to be a little over the edge. Awww, a former neo nazi even cried for her - how touching. And completely made up - and centered around kissing her butt.
The problem isn't the stickers! I would expect an educator to understand this - especially from the heart of the German Empire as it were. You overcome issues like this by teaching people - education. Teach people the cost of this hatred - and what the Nazis were about. How can Germany of ALL places lose track of this?
First, it's her time to waste.
Second, she documents what she has done, the she apparently goes to schools and talks about it. She is making a difference, small it may be its more than most of us. And the fact that she documents it for history may help prevent it from happening again.
Kudos to her.
Turning away and "ignoring" is exactly why the Nazis got as far as they did.
Peace.
aceman...do you know what a dog does when it's let lose? It runs all over the place pissing on everything marking it's territory. All the graffiti, stickers and gang signs are the humans equivalent of dog piss.
You cannot educate self-delusional arrogance and ignorance out of people. And you ignore it at your peril.
aceman, how do you get up every morning and get through your day being so cynical?
I would hate to be you, poor soul.
Yes *aceman*,This heroic lady hit a raw spot with you.She has as much right to "OPEN " her mouth to speak as you do. Teaching people instead? She IS teaching someone,not anyone like you of course.On the other hand,Neo-Nazis are quite welcome in America so she won't find a lot of respect here! Work,brave lady,continue to make some shred of difference,whether it "seems" to be effective or not! God knows.
Aceman.
What we need are MORE people like her "wasting their time" and FEWER people "wasting their time" like YOU.
Have a nice day.
But there are those who try to change the truth of history. So teaching is not all that can be done.
It is said that when we can do the human thing, then do it. But when we have exhausted all of our human resources, then that is when God intervenes.
Some people still haven't got it.
"... touch not mine anointed and do my prophets no harm...
Ace, those who don't learn from the past are destined to repeat it. This woman is very brave and worth the respect and admiration of everyone who is a believer in peace and solidarity.
70odd years ago, people turned their backs, ignoring the signs while the Jews were being herded onto cattle cars. While the handicapped and mentally challenged were being gassed. While the supporters of the Jews and other Nazi enemies were themselves being dragged to the slaughter.
Should we turn our back on someone now fighting that same old fight against ignorance and bigotry? NO...She deserves a Nobel Peace Prize for her bravery.
So a nazi came up to her and said her removing paint made him change his ways. That is so believable. Its not like looking at per capita crime stats could change anyones mind. What people forget is the holodomor where jewish bolsheviks killed over 35 million christians in the 1930's helped form hitlers view of the jews.
Yes.. according to the right-wing extremists, there are lots of us who "have it coming". the poor, because they are poor, the weak and infirm because they are, the middle class because they are not rich.. I'd say we had better hope they don't get any stronger and "give it to us". This woman is very brave and may she continue her battle without fear for many years to come.. We need to find that voice for ourselves..
"Yes.. according to the right-wing extremists, there are lots of us who "have it coming"."
Paranoid much?
"right wing" has no place in your statement pvf, the operative word in your statement was "extremist" (they exist on both sides, and niether is any better or worse than the other), once you realize this, then you have truly chosen an enlightend path.
safe journey-
Baloney, Chumbkt.
Nothing on the Left, even REMOTELY akin to the right wing.
False equivalency.
Baloney.
"nothing on the left" Really? Denying the truth, doesn't make it less true. Remember, it's better to be thought a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt!
Very true Chum. Extremists are always a Threat. No matter what their religion or political beliefs.
Paranoid much?
Not really. I've seen you dish it out as well as anyone.
And while any type of extremist may pose a threat, in America today the extremists are represented by the Republican Party and Fox News.
Period.
(Anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim, anti-African American, anti-Latino, anti-Union, anti-Social Security, anti-everything, and using the "big lies" just like Hitler did.)
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are not after you.
"Nothing on the left"
Nazism is the opposite of communism, the jewish bolsheviks killed over 35 million christians in the 1930s USSR and that helped form hilters views on jews
I am white male Scotch-Irish and there is terrible, terrible racism against me where I live (I am afraid to say, but is not Scotch Irish) ?¿ racism, then can very easily operate in different directions
maybe racism is ancient and innate - to protect from social invasion? - but then exploited (e.g. Hitler, some here) to control others (the masses)
Nope. Just a excuse.
And don't expect the rest of us to feel sorry for you for being Scotch-Irish. No one is picking on you for that.
What a brave woman!! We should have more brave people like her in the US where there is certainly a need!!
Local governments should get young school kids and adults together once a month to remove the offensive graffiti.Not only are you educating the young people,the adults will learn that they can't look the other way.Give the kids something,tickets,toys,free concert tickets.One women all alone,shame on you Germany.
aetherfoam.
What we are dealing with here, is White Supremacy. The delusion that people who are not White are some kind of sub-species. You got that there? Doubt it.
What you're trying to do is draw false equivalencies in order to feel less insecure about the fact that you are in possession of the skin color that typically promotes that kind of bigotry.
At one place where I worked, there was a supervisor who was a self-admitted neo-nazi and Hitler admirer. One day during break, he waited until a certain employee who had a disability was out of earshot and told her co-workers that "people like her" should be exterminated so they can't have inferior children." A number of co-workers reported that statement to their co-worker with a disability. That co-worker who was already maintaining a journal since she was being harassed, sued the company on that statement alone and won. Yet, the company kept the nazi supervisor. I found out much later, that supervisor was met with a number of co-workers outside the workplace, and they took him down. I wish I had been there to help them. That supervisor had once told me that I was "inferior" because I am so short. I am only five-feet tall. I just turned away because if I had said something to the twerp even in self-defense, he would have gone to management and lied about anything I might have said. I left before I could help kill the bully neo-nazi. That would have been a great catharsis to be able to have a hand in that. It's a cold case now. No one seems to be able to find the body.
'Extermination' is not the answer, no matter who does it.
Businesses keep top producers despite their views, no business would fire a top producer for something he said about someone who couldnt do the job of one person.
Irmela, you go, girl! What an inspiring human being! Would that more Americans understood the threat posed by our (slightly more subtle) haters!
who are all white,right maryin.
Maryin is obviously refering to the Leftist Facists here on these boards.
chumbkt, I do so wish you would actually learn something about the words you use. One cannot be a leftist and a facist at the same time. Facists are always right wing. Liberals are left wing and if taken to the extreme are either socialists or communists. Facists want everyone to do everything exactly as they are told to by the ruling party, and dislike minorities and people who are "different" in any way and want to force conformity in all things, including religion and race. Liberals want diversity and equality for everyone, and freedom to pursue any religion or cultural path they want to.
Chum, you're on the wrong vine; this is not your Fox.
Pretty much. At least the ones who pose an actual threat.
Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Lou Dobbs, John Tanton, Lamar Smith, Rupert Murdoch, Mitt Romney, ... it's a pretty long list.
You can despise Louis Farrakhan all you want, but he doesn't actually pose a THREAT to anybody.
Forget Farrakhan, check out convicted crack dealer leader of the black panthers statments in
New Black Panther Leader Justifies Gang Rape of 11-Year-Old Hispanic Girl
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=896_1299879002
.http://hayladies.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/victim-blaming-in-the-new-york-times-cleveland-gang-rape-article/
and the black footsoldier movement http://nationalblackfootsoldiernetwork.blogspot.com/
A black man would be safer going to a KKK rally with a rope around his neck than going to a store in the ghetto.
This woman is a real mensch!
yes, YES,deborah,embrace the hate.an eye for an eye,or a life for expessing one's opinion.freedom of speech is there to protect speech you DON'T agree with.
I am no friend of the Neo-Nazis, but I find it interesting that freedom of speech in Germany is limited to what the govt. says is acceptable. The govt has created the atmosphere that encourages the Neo-Nazis to flourish by "outlawing" them. It would probably be better to allow their idiocy & just ignore them. Prohibition never works.
Wayne, that's why many of the Neo-Nazi websites are based here in the US. Much of Europe has a Non-Tolerance policy for Neo-Nazis, as they do for the Holocaust deniers. We here in the states cannot fathom that type of repression, but at the same time, being isolated as we are we did not feel the bombs that destroyed their homes, or witness the horrors as Hitler and his followers swept through Europe.
This is a brave woman who is deserving of our respect and admiration. I wish we had some leaders like her in our country today. Who will stand up for what is right, and not back down just because what is RIGHT isn't popular at the moment.
I saw holocaust deniers at the DC museum. They where jews denying that anyone other than them died, such as convicts, communists, gypsys, political prisoners,& gays
Immigrant bashing is usually a cover for something else. In the present US, it's designed to divert attention away from the big corporations who ruined the US economy. And it works -- aside from Madoff, how many businessmen have you seen in jail? In Europe, apparently, it's a tool for the Nazis to get back in power.
I missed it, who is bashing legal immagrints?
chumbkt don't read the treads much do ya. Lots of hate on here and a good portation is aimed at hispanics.
Do you mean hispanic illegal invaders or hispanic gang-bangers?
God Bless her. The world is a better place because of people like her.
Had a neighbor who helped liberate a camp. He got a bad look on his face and could not say much about it.
The one and only solution to eliminate racism: either whites should stop procreating or non-whites should stop procreating.
Not a big fan of free expression, is she? How easy it is to self-righteously tear down other peoples' political posters and stickers. I presume she is the sole judge of what is politically correct. It's easy to censor and obliterate ideas you don't agree with. Just ask the Nazis. Every totalitarian state is well practiced in the art of suppression. Democracy is a sham if all points of view except your own are banned. This woman is no better than those she despises.
Hatred is not speech. It is a display of evil. it is designed to make you think there are more haters out here than there really are. Most of the haters are not very literate. It they were they would choose to create posters that actually says something. It is also a form of libel. It attempts to make you believe some people are less human than you are MIke-25557578. Every empathic state would make racism a crime. Mike you may be able to rise above the racist thought. In fact it is not thought. It is an ugly emotion. It will influence only those who are not like you MIke. Ugly emotions that hurt minorities is what this heroic woman is scraping away. She has scraped it from her soul when when she married her husband. Her life is stronger than words. It is a life built on a foundation of truth. The truth is that we are all pretty much the same.
The other day, (Republican) Representative Cornell West called for the literal expulsion of liberals from the United States, on the grounds that their beliefs were by definition treason. Astonishingly, many people subscribe to this view that liberalism should be made a crime, just as you think that "racism" should be made a crime. By the way, who defines the crime of "racism"? Who is eligible to be tagged as a racist? I have black friends who have stated explicitly that only white people can be racists, and that no matter what people of color do, they can never be called racists. Clearly, there is no objective definition of racism; it's an entirely self-serving concept, a weapon wielded to silence discussion and slander the character and intentions of people you disagree with.
Ideas can only be combated by better ideas. Evidence (not wishes or magical thinking) validates ideas. Suppressing free expression is thought control by another means. It leads to dictatorship, totalitarianism, and the overall regimentation of society.
Mike, this is not 'free expression'; this is hateful graffiti. She has a right to cover it up just as much as the punks who made it feel they have a right to vomit such bile into the world.
In Germany Nazi crap is against the law.
Read much?
No one has the right to deface property that does not belong to them. So, what this woman is doing is helping get rid of the crap that these hateful idiots are illegally posting.
You have the right to say whatever you want but you do not have the right to post your filth on property that belongs to others.
If you want to spew hatred...deface your own damn property.
Mike, Dr. Cornell West didn't say that. Cornell West IS a liberal. He's a member of the Democratic Socialists of America. Colonel Allen West (who is a Republican Representative) made that statement. HUGE differences between the two men and their philosophies, but I can see how it's easy to confuse the name Colonel West with the name Cornell West.
I meant to say ALLEN West, not Cornell West. I did confuse Colonel Allen West with Cornell West. Sorry!
Nationalism will rise again. It's inevitable. What will you liberals do then?
Go neos!
Racists suffer from low self esteem. Most of us suffer from low self esteem. The rest of us do not seek a cure for our own low opinion of ourselves by denigrating others. The rest understand that we are all the same. The racist cure is in seeing other as less human than themselves. This allow them to feel better about themselves. This is clear evidence that racists are ignoramuses. In fact most of us recognize that empathy ranks as a superior emotion to hatred. The truth of the matter is that the racist by hating reduces his or her stature in the human community. One of the racists figured that out finally and killed himself. Being a racist make you inferior to those you hate.
I would argue that low self esteem is not necessarily a bad thing. Psychopaths and narcissists have high self esteem. Unbridles high self esteem is an integral part of criminality. Criminals esteem themselves so much that they have no empathy for the suffering they cause.
So how do you explain Dr Watson who won the nobel prize for discovering DNA, Darwin, and Aristotle.
The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal.” Aristotle
In his interview with the Times on Oct. 14th, we learned that:
[Watson] is "inherently gloomy about the prospect of
Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that
their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not
really."
These thoughts were a continuation of an important theme in his new book Avoid
Boring People:
"...there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of
peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have
evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some
universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."
We have our neo-Nazi hate groups right here in the United States (Tea-Party, Ku Klax Klan, White citizens council, etc) that I wish you could help spray paint away! Hate is a powerful force, and it will not get better unless good people stand up to it!!
Keep up the good work!!
There are a lot of groups in this country who believe they are mainstream who are no better than the Neonazis in Germany. Hate is hate. If you hate our President because of the color of his skin or because you disagree with his policies, you are hateful. You can disagree with your fellow citizens without hating them. I blame Fox News for so much of the hateful speech which is going on in our country. Anyone who incites hatred for their fellow citizens should be spray painted over.
"Fellow "CITIZENS" is the word here.........how about 'ILLEGALS' bringing drugs and deseases into your country?? These people come from places that don't have 'regular immunization practices' as in the United States. Although I realize that many US CITIZENS don't approve of the 'regular inmmunization' of their children at least they are in a country that has all kinds of safety regulations. Not so with many of the countries that these ILLEGALS come from. ALSO, how many of those coming across the border are involved in the DRUG TRAFFIC?? It seems to me I've read about even our NATIONAL FORESTS having HIDDEN DRUG FARMS being run by many of these ILLEGALS?? I agree with reasonable immigration as it was in the past BUT nowadays there is just too much UNREGULATED IMMIGRATION which brings lawlessness and desease, along with the drugs, that infiltrates our citizens all over the United States!! THINK, THINK using your God given brains to see why so many PROTEST ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!! AND, this old, old woman is one of them.
Tommy... your sadly confused. The dem/socialist party is OBVIOUSLY the closet thing we have to the Nazi party. They adovcate the deaths of innocents (abortion). They advocate the extermination of elderly and infirm for the "good of society" (health 'car' law). They adovcate government run lives over freedom. The advocate leader worship over religous choice. The advocte blind obedience versus freedom of speech.
The Tea PArty on the other hand advoacte life, liberty, and freedom. Nice try though, you have OBVIOUSLY bought into the lie like a good Hitler Youth.
If you have ever been to Germany you can still feel the depression and anger in most of the people. Not sure why this is. Not sure if it was because of the fall of Hitler, and the demonization of German's after that, or something much deeper that goes farther back. It is a beautiful but depressing place.
You can't outlaw hate groups in America. It is there right to express theirselves and "hate". It is unfortunate that people can not see past their own noses and twisted beliefs. And the Tea Party is not a hate group. That is a stupid comment made by someone that is ignorant. If so, then any employer that employs someone with neo-nazi beliefs supports neo-nazi idealizm. Let's just throw the Black Panther group in that racist mix. It isn't just whites that are racist. Don't be so narrow minded and believe every bit of vile the left-wing AND the right-wing spew. There are blacks, hispanics, and asian people promoting and standing behind the Tea Party. It isn't all Caucasion people in white hoods you idiot. And no, I am not part of the Tea Party myself. Just educated.
Gsagal, While I dislike Obama, it's not because of his race. I don't like his politics. But whenever I say I don't like his politics or where I see this country is heading I'm accused of being a closet racist, because in the view of some if you don't like Obama, or didn't vote for him, then you MUST be racist.
Just remember it's JUST as racist to vote FOR a person because of his race as it is to vote against him because of his race.
Could it have to do with the 60+million germans killed after WWII? WWII was started due to the jews causing the germans to lose WWI & jews wrote the treaty of versailles that impoverished germans like the Fed has done to the US.
Hitler tried to save his people from the communist jews. Jews came in after WW1 and bought everything while the German people starved in the streets. The jews declared war on Germany (check American newspapers) because Hitler stood in their way. He stopped them from taking over Germany like they did Russia. This race-mixing traitor and her sister are doing their part to destroy the Caucasian Race. They are probably jews. Don't ya'll notice that the mass media always makes heroes out of anyone who does their part to destroy the Caucasian Race? Wake up sheeple! The Caucasian Race is the "Golden Goose" that makes a decent society available for all to prosper. Why else do the non-Whites pour into every Caucasian country? Multiculturalism is Caucasian genocide!
Aha. I found you Adam. You little neo nazi. I guess you suffer from huge self low self esteem. Poor Adam. Distorting historical truths is the game of Haters. I suspect your IQ is the same as Hitler's. You know where you can go. If you studied high school biology, you would learn that Caucasian is not race, it is a phenotype. Have you even gone to school? I suspect you were expelled because you never learned that there never was such a thing as race. Only a NAZI RACISTS buys into such garbage. My country entered the war to kill guys like you in 1939. I guess we did not get all of them, you're still around. GO Adam GO. They're still looking for you.
Oh that's why Jews flock to Germany to escape persecution. Could you be any more delusional? Who tells you this stuff? Rupert Murdoch? The Koch Bros?
Yeah you're a free man alright, free of any valid and logical synaptic activity. Polly want a cracker?
Because they control the world? Duh!
Ya, because American newspapers ALWAYS told the truth back then about foreign relations.... hell even now! :eyeroll:
This is obvious sarcasm - - to those of you who need a font.
Yesterday a story hit the national news that Israel may be about the attack Iran. Today this front page story on MSNBC.com about fighting neo-Nazis. Thus the media continues to gin up sympathy for Jews and by reference, Israel. Look for more of these type of stories as the year goes along.
It may be that Israel would be right to hit Iran. Or it may not be. Nevertheless, look for more of these "terrible Nazi" stories. It is not that the Nazis weren't terrible. But resurrecting this genre of news story at this time is more than a little suspicious.
Joe your brain wanders too much. If you could stop it from wandering. You might wake up and realize you have the makings of a Neo Nazi. Your parents would be proud of you. GO Joe GO.
joe1022joe sounds pretty solid with a "complete" thinking process -- even if it's just a circumstance. Now me wonder if other news story have this eerily feelings.
Look for a story about World War 1 (under Woodrow Wilson, Democrat) or the Japanese and our involvement in WW2 (under President Roosevelt, Democrat) or the Korean War (under president Truman, Democrat) or maybe even some story about Vietnam (under J.F.Kennedy, Democrat and L.B. Johnson, Democrat) next week.
Interestingly, in the People's Republic of China the Korean was is referred to as the War to Resist U.S. Aggression and Aid Korea.
@villian157 what's your point? Could it be that Democrats start wars or push American imperialism? How convenient that you've forgotten that Republicans and Democrats switched ideologies after LBJ. Why? Because was a southern Democrat that went against the party's stance on civil rights.