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Subscribe to RSSIsrael has historically faced hostility from it's Arab neighbors. Now, it is facing hostility within it's own borders as the battle between ultra-Orthodox and secular Jews threatens to divide the country. NBC's Martin Fletcher reports.
TEL AVIV – Israel’s orthodox and secular Jews are in the midst of a pitched battle over the role of women in society.
It's a question as old as the state: how Jewish will the country be? In recent weeks radical ultraorthodox Jews have hit the headlines after one told a woman to go to the back of a public bus. Others smashed the windows of shops with content they considered provocative, defaced posters of women and even threatened children.
It's all about so-called modesty. Radical ultraorthodox want women out of sight, so that they won't be tempted – even by children.
It's a decades old fight that sometimes hits the headlines. But under Israel's right-wing religious coalition government, the tension is growing.
NBC News’ Martin Fletcher reports from Tel Aviv on the ongoing battle. Watch the video above.
Leave a Comment:
I'm all for this religious take over of Israel.
Once the radical left has cemented it's power and Israel is firmly a religious theocracy, it will mean that 30 BILLION dollars worth of American taxpayers money will no longer be going to that wretched, racist country every year.
Gotta love our separation of church and state. Oh yes.
http://kpr37.newsvine.com/_news/2012/01/09/10071727-the-hypocrisy-of-the-anti-zionist-left-relations-with-neturei-karta-thesystemworks
foodandart
"I'm all for this religious take over of Israel.
Once the radical left has cemented it's power and Israel is firmly a religious theocracy, it will mean that 30 BILLION dollars worth of American taxpayers money will no longer be going to that wretched, racist country every year."
Nice exaggeration. Israel gets about 2.3 billion per year in financial aid, but don't let facts get in the way of the truth.
I am just about done reading the Old Testament. Jews have created much of their own problems, like failing to keep the covenant of God. Nothing in the OT that says women are second class citizens. Nothing in it that says homosexuals should be treated like citizens. Israel is a totally screwed up place. But then again, it still makes the rest of the world look like sewer rats.
However, a story broke today that you won't see here on MSNBC. The muslem brotherhood wants to break the peace treaty with Israel. Of course you don't care even though Egypt gets nearly the same amount in funding as Israel to keep the peace. What does that mean? Peace in the ME will end. Nuclear war will happen. The stupid who blame Israel for everything will get sucked in and life as they know it will end. Enjoy.
Israel doesn't need Americas money. That money is in support of Israel supporting "American interests"... so that it won't take over the middle east for oil flow purposes. TRUST ME, Israel doesn't need America's money.
Jerome, they may not need it, but they sure are happy to take it. Honest people do not take what they don't need. Greedy people do.
So what is it? They need the money or are dishonest and greedy?
GREEDY
Isn't it like "I don't ever buy anything retail........"
foodandart.... um... ultraorthodox jews do not work. they receive money from the government because they feel their job is to "pray" for israel. the secular jews are what keeps the country going, including the technology you use every day. believe it or not, its in your best interest to have the secular jews taking over. you really have no idea what you're talking about.
Religion in all forms has always been a great excuse for bigots and male chauvinists.
Since when is the radical, liberal left the sector promoting religious orthodoxy?
This would be news in this country, where the left is seen [sometimes, unjustly] as the champion of secularism, moral relativism and the general disavowal of religion.
Facts, such annoying things.
"They don't dress modestly. I'm a healthy man". Why is that man not in jail? He's admitting to being sexually excited by the sight of a young girl. Any of the men who are demanding that 6-12 year old girls dress more "modestly" b/c they are getting turned on should really be locked up. Even radical Muslims don't force girls THAT young into burquas!
The ultra orthodox are radical right, not radical left and suffer from the same rectal-cranial inversion as our own fundamentalists
There you have it. The Jews must have read "Mein Kampf" and decided to set up a Jewish Nazi State. From another article; you can't call someone a nazi but you can sure act like one without any problem.
Do they want to put women in burkas? Perhaps they should take lessons from the Taliban. It seems they are more interested in power than religion.
If a man can't think modestly with a woman around how truely religious can he be. It is time for men to take responsibility for their own dirty minds and quit blaming us. Or maybe we should just do what men have been doing for generations and abort extra boy children for the sake of world peace.
What do you mean radical left it the radicle right that makes up the crazy religious people.
This article only has half of the information.
Secular Jews are not the only ones against what this sect of ultra orthodox Jews are doing but a lot of religious Jews that don't associate themselves with this group are against them as well. They don't agree with their extremism and activities. Violence is always abhorrent and disgraceful. Not loving your fellow man or Jew is disgraceful as well. This sect is extreme and dishonorable.
large Jewish organizations that are categorized as religious organizations have come out against these activities. They are giving webminars, conferences and releasing articles telling people to stop these acts and to not associate with this group.
Please in the future do your research.Just like not all Muslims are terrorist so to not all religious Jews are this extreme. You get a glimpse into a society and you take that as fact and as the whole truth. I as an educated individual never make assumptions about any faith, group or practice until I have done my complete research.
Rosie:
But even liberal Jews paint all Muslim with same brush. No one is trying to understand altruism that you indicate in you positing.
All races and religion have their crooks , killer, rapist. extremist, violent and lasrge majority who just want to live life and be happy. If we all give same udnerstanding as situation in Israel, it will be nice
Raj and Rosie
You both make good points. While the Ultra Orthodox make life difficult in Israel, the Radical Muslims make life difficult world wide. Radical Jews in Israel have attacked innocent Palestinians, built homes on disputed lands, have gotten a free ride from the Israeli government, and have hurt the Israeli economy.
Radical Muslims worldwide have blown up military barracks in Lebanon, crashed planes into the WTC and Pentagon, thrown invalids in wheel chairs to their death, blown up pizza parlors filled with civilians, blown up discos in the Philippines, smashed in the heads of toddlers with their rifle butts, and cut the heads off reporters.
Israeli Jews want to end the disgusting behavior of Orthodox Jews in Israel. I haven't seen a lot of protest from the Muslim world against Muslim radicals.
Both Orthodox Jewish and Muslim radicals are bad. You can form your own opinion which is worse.
The Jews are making a genuine effort to combat their in-house idiots. The muslims could learn a few things from this and follow suit, but we all know they wont.
And therein lies the issue that so many people throughout the world have with islam.
Lar:
It is not simple. Jews of Israel comes from west. We expect them to be enlighten. Most of them are well educated in western sicence, art, culture, tech. And they have more freedom at least since end of the world war.
Muslims are still 50-100 years behind. Thye were oprressed still opressed by west and weestern supported dictators who for their own interest choked the growth of freeddom and democracy. Every one knew Mobarak was corrupt. For Israel sake we gave him billions to keep nationalistic fervor in checl.
Jews are matiure democracy and economy and have played well on the guilty conscious of the gentiles. Muslim are smart but not sophisticated and no knowledge of western machiavalian politics.
I expectg more from Jews. There is no equivalecy.
Izmee and Raj
You did not get my point
Muslim Radicals are infinitely worse than Radical Israeli Jews. It's laughable that a story about moderate Jews being upset at radical Israeli Jews is here while FEW MODERATE MUSLIMS CONDEMN MUSLIM RADICAL ACTS!
Is that clearer?
RAJ:
Your comments make no sense at all.
Please write when you are well-informed re: Israel. Israel is a State that is made up of Persecuted Jews/Immigrants from all over the World. They sought safety in this Country.
The State of Israel began in 1947---did you experience the persecution/torture at that time? Geez, start doing some research.
Actually, that was my point, precisely.
You both make good points. While the Ultra Orthodox make life difficult in Israel, the Radical Muslims make life difficult world wide. Radical Jews in Israel have attacked innocent Palestinians, built homes on disputed lands, have gotten a free ride from the Israeli government, and have hurt the Israeli economy.
Except they've already started bringing their segregated buses and putting up signs telling people coming through their towns that they have to dress modestly and maintain gender segregation. Imagine that - Americans are subsidizing public buses that are segregated by sex to appease a religion. Of course, since it's only women, many don't care. But when these groups start stoning cars that pass through their towns on a Saturday (Sabbath), you might begin to care.
And if those above think these men aren't just as bad as Muslims, explain how on earth you think that throwing rocks and feces at 6 year old girls, and calling them whores is better?? Is that your idea of holy?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but radical Muslims have also committed multiple and ongoing acts of international terrorism against civilians. Its a stretch to compare the two sets of radicals, although I would personally be glad to be rid of both.
Finally good new. Israel will look like rest of the Aran Nations. Saria laws will be for all of the Middles Ease whether they are Jews or Muslims, as along as there descedents of Abraham.
Those liberal NYC Jews. I feel sorry for them. Their low cost summer vacation is in jeopordy! Their cottage on occupied land will get more secure and more risky. You can live there if you follow saria laws and you can fend of Palestininas.
Best wishes
Raj, try spell check at least. your post makes no sense.
yydl2
Can u spell check for me and repost
best wishes
thank you
It makes sense to me. Just another racist rant from an illiterate, antisemite. Crystal clear!
It amazes me how someone can cram so many spelling and grammatical errors in such a short post.
Is a fact jew and muslim dont integrate.
Alex:
There are lot of you Jewish-muslim marriages now a day. ANd it will increase. May ultra orthodox fear it.
Raj, How's that Kashmir business working out?
yydl2
Kashmir, not very good. The guys who gave you heartache, they gave to India and Pakistan too. Their lust for power is costing us lives, wealth and peace of mind.
Wanna go after them?
raj
Raj, I see the spelling police are out in force, I had no trouble understanding you. Chances are they can only speak English, have never bothered to learn another language, let alone have traveled outside the USA Kashmir is a disaster brought to the world by the "Angrizee"
This question is far older than a few decades. This goes back to the Macabee revolt where the religious Jews rebelled against the Greek Selucids and the Hellenized Jews who accepted Greek learning, Greek language and even Greek names. The Macabees wanted Isael to be more Jewish and less Greek, so they revolted. The resulting victory is Hanukkah
Even Paul, of Christian fame, was a Hellenized Jew. The first new testament bibles were all written in Greek, never in Hebrew or Aramaic. The old testament was based on the Hellenic Septuagint.
The modern reformed Jews are analogous to the Helenized Jews, America is the Greeks, and the religious Jews are analogous to the Macabees.
Who will win this time? Hopefully it won't involve temple assasinations.
They already killed Israeli Prime Minister Rabin for making peace with Jordan and wanting to make peace with the Palestinians. How's that for a temple assassination?
You would think that people as intelligent as the Jews would have laughed these clowns out of existence - wearing Polish fashions from several centuries ago, praying to the retaining wall the King Herod built, pretending it is the wall of the second temple, and eschewing military service or work so that they can pray for the death of their enemies - Muslims and liberal Jews - e.g. the ones that let women have a role in religious ceremonies, work or politics.
Why can't Woody Allen and other comics get rid of these folks with humor? They are completely absurd. Amazing that the political authorities in Israel are afraid of them.
Tompom, you had me up to the point of Woody Allen. Woody would be in their side as he also likes screwing daughters....Lest we forget...
The real enemy of the zionist state is not Iran but the relgious Jews who are just as fanatical as the radical Muslims are. The zionists have to keep war on the front burner or else the Jews themselves will tear Israel apart over religious matters and women's rights. Its time for the US to assume military control over Israel to prevent any more internal trouble there and to ensure peace in the ME.
I follow the teachings of a Nazarene Jew (the Prince of Peace) who was murdered by other Jews who formalized their religion into strict laws demeaning women and the uneducated poor. All religions created by man are warped into political arms that protect the rich and powerful. The Prince of Peace was against all that and was crucified , He was the true revolutionary and still reigns in the hearts of his true believers who will gladly follow His teachings to the end of Time. Amen !
Even the Catholic Church dropped that line about the Jews killing Jesus years ago. Why do you bring it up now?
Al, the Catholic Church said that we should not hold present day Jews responsible for what happened 2000 years ago.
I just wish the present day Jews would stop with "Concentration Camp" garb. They are no longer getting sympathy, but the opposite. People look at people that constantly complain and eventually we just don't give a sh!t about something that DID happen or care if it happens again. Especially if those that are crying "look at what happened to us" are doing it to Palestinians.
Jay:
Just too bad that prince of peace harrased Jews for 2000 years all over europe and finally appeased by killing of six million Jews. Prince never showed up to say his followeers: "stop"
RAJ it didn't take long before you intorduced the old tired story of the holocaust into the discussion did it? why is it that when you lack any answers for the question at hand that holocausters always resort to this worn out fabrication of a lie that has been refuted time and time again ... is it because you know that zionism is losing the battle for men's hearts and minds?
Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds perished. More than one million Jewish children were killed in the Holocaust, as were approximately two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men. Broad definitions of the Holocaust include the Nazis' genocide of millions of people in other groups, including Romani (more commonly known in English by the exonym "Gypsies"), Sinti, Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, homosexuals, people with disabilities, Jehovah's Witnesses and other political and religious opponents, which occurred regardless of whether they were of German or non-German ethnic origin. Using this definition, the total number of civilians murdered by the Nazis is between 10 million and 11 million (around 5.7 million Jews and a roughly equal number of non-Jews).
Feel sorry for you. NOT!
This discussion is not about your prince. About Jewish people and their realtionship with their neighbors and if some in each have common cultural take on some fringe issues that makes majorities life on each side difficult.
I do nothave problem with Jesus but in a way he is used is outright stupid. I have not fiound a christian who can claim they have followed Jesus teachings even the missionaries and devout christians.
Wow, Raj, you must not get out much. Try to read the New Testiment and just read the words that Jesus said.
But then again, if you are from or in Pakistan, I can understand your not having found any Christians that follow the words of Jesus....Christians tend to not last long in Pakistan AND India is not much better.
I follow the teachings of a Nazarene Jew who was the ultimate revolutionary that changed the world 2000 years ago and is still changing it. Mankind has taken his simple concepts and warped them into rules,regulations, and bizarre interpretations to permanently keep women, and the uneducated poor in the tight grip of the rich and powerful...We who practice His teachings on a daily basis only wish to change ourselves and by example change others to be better people.
These orthodox fellows seem more primitive than the radical islamists they despise. Therefore I color them with the same brush. That goes for Rick Santorum as well. What people don't get is that organized religion is not the answer. It is the problem.
Raj----the fault lies in our refusal to follow the messages of all the wise men and prophets of history..Humanity seems determined to kill the messengers if they don't like the messages..Sad ! Even those who proclaim allegiance to His precepts keep trying to change His image into ours instead of the other way around. The "Golden Rule" taught and practiced by all people would be a wonderful start . Don't be led into negativism by those who are negative from living negative lives. Sholem !
And Jay. I would like to follow that Nazarene Jew as well but common sense doesn't allow it. That is if Jesus has revealed himself to you and not me, rational thought leaves one conclusion. That is, I admit I have no idea what comes after this life. Of that I am certain. I am as well convinced that neither do you. Ah, if only the world would only act in a Christ like manner there would be no need for Christianity or the rest of religion. That should make everyone happy including God, whoever he is.
vermondog, it doesn't take much common sense to follow the belief of "Do to others as you want them to do to you". That pretty much sums up being a Christian.
Fools...
Do not see what the ultraorthodox can accomplish as they are in the minority in Israel. Even the orthodox think these people are nuts. Still a perplexing problem for the government. But, the right wing religious coalition may try to make some concessions for the ultraorthodox. If that happens the people may just want the Likud backi in charge.
They already made "some concessions" in 2010, giving up on peace. Defense Minister Barak made a proposal for the West Bank that was accepted in principle by the Fatah chief negotiator. Israel would have gotten most of Jerusalem including the big settlements in East Jerusalem plus those along the border. The temple mount would have been autonomous in accordance with the Israeli commitment in the 1994 peace with Jordan that Muslims would continue to control their mosques on the temple mount. Palestine would have gotten the Arab quarter of Jerusalem. The violent extremist settlers would have been separated from the Muslim counterparts. Israel wouldn't have the dilemma of what to do with 2.4 million West Bank Palestinians incorporated into Israel.
President Peres supported the peace as did the Kadima Party. Tzipi Livni offered to support Netanyahu in Parliament if he would make peace "if only to hold his shaking hand" while he signed the peace. Gaza would have voted after the peace was complete to join and gotten an enclosed highway to the West Bank as part of the land exchange. Hamas would have been eclipsed. Mubarak would have sold the peace to all the Arab countries (who had asked for peace based in 1967 borders but would accept this lesser alternative) and to a majority of the Palestinians.
Now that opportunity for a reasonable negotiated peace has passed, thanks to Netanyahu staying with his extremist coalition and going for more land grabs rather than accepting peace. Most likely scenario now would be that Israel annexes the whole West Bank and accepted the Palestinians as permanent residents - something no Jewish Israeli wants - but better than illegally expelling them (Nazi like) or killing them.
Current attempts at talks for a negotiated peace are just for show - with no chance of success while Netanyahu is in power.. "Facts on the ground" (new land grabs) will make a two state peace difficult for any government to negotiate. Netanyahu has diminished the fortunes of Fatah (that already recognized Israel formally, renounced violence and wanted peace) in favor of Hamas, which now have a friend rather than an enemy in the Egyptian government. So no one is seriously talking about a negotiated peace any more.
Making peace with the Arabs for the West Bank and Jerusalem would have also made Ahmajinedad's anti-Israel rantings ridiculous to everyone, including Iranians. Far preferable to a war that would require occupation of Iran with its 77 million people now divided but united against an invader. Iraq would likely support its Shia brothers in Iran and Hizbullah, which hasn't been attacking Israel in recent years would likely launch missiles from Lebanon.
An out right rejection of reality, or a comment by someone who doesnt know a thing about what they are commenting on.
Palestinian liberation origination (PLO) charter http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp
Not only does this reject Israel's right to exist, it objects to the nation State of Jordan's existence as well. America considers Jordan as a friendly nation.Why do we, as nation fund the PLO when it goal is the out right elimination of two of our allied nations ?
The charter of Hamas is even more to the point. It calls for the genocide of the Jewish people.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Moslem Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Moslem Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Moslem Brotherhood in 1968 and after.
Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that
should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
kpr:
If Palestinians are to accept Israel as alegitimate state, what is left to negotiate? The fair and possible negotiation line wa spropsoed by Saudis. In return for 11967 adjusted border for mutual convenience, All arab states will simultaneously will recognise Israel and normalize realtions.
I have not seen any fairer proposal then that. But settlers have nothing o do with it.
In case you didn't know it, the PLO (Arafat) signed an agreement formally recognizing Israel and renouncing violence. The timetables were not met. After and Prime Minister Rabin's murder by an extremist Jew, Sharon entered the temple mount with hundreds of policemen and helicopters overhead. That started the 2nd Intifada when kids started throwing stones. Arafat declined to stop the violence, possibly because he feared being killed by his own people like Sadat of Egypt and Rabin of Israel if he made peace, or possibly he felt Sharon was challenging the Jordan Peace commitment of Israel to protect Muslim control of their mosques on the temple mount.
In any case, Arafat is long dead. In 2002 all the Arab countries called for peace with Israel based on 1967 borders, repeated in 2007. Fatah returned to the principle of the Oslo Accords - recognition of Israel and non-violence and resumed negotiations. Mubarak went to Washington to try to help negotiate the peace and offered to sell Defense Minister Barak's proposal (see above - less than 1967 borders) to all the Arab countries and a majority of the Palestinians.
Hamas never agreed to recognize Israel and renounce violence and tried to torpedo the negotaitions. But it was Netanyahu who refused the peace in 2010. Abbas didn't have full authority and needed Mubarak to sell the peace to the Palestinians. Netanyahu gave up on the peace which would required him to let go of some of the extremists in his coalition (who would have left at any serious moves toward peace) and take Kadima's offer to support him in a peace settlement. He prefered to stick with his extremist coalition and go for more land grabs rather than make peace.
BTW, if you want to go way back in history, when the Crusaders took Jerusalem, they killed all the Muslims and Jews in the city. Later, when Saladin (Salah El Din) took it back, he let the Christian soldiers go with their possessions after paying a fine, respected the Christian churches, and invited Jews to come back and live in Jerusalem.
Historically, the Ottoman Empire (controlling all the Arab lands until World War I) was much more tolerant toward religious minorities than European countries were. In World War I, there were four Jews on the Turkish Ruling Council. Today in Iran, there are 25,000 Jews who have refused big subsidies offered if they would move to Israel and they have a seat in Parliament.
There is considerable anti-Jewish feeling these days in Muslim countries because the 650,000 mostly European Jews in Israel expelled over 700,000 Arabs from Israel in 1948 and then humiliated Arab countries in wars - but this idea of the Muslim religion calling for the killing of all Jews being followed by all Muslims - is just a lie.
(note some of the Arabs left voluntarily but most left in terror. In addition to the widely publcized murders of a hundred peaceful Arab villagers in Deir Yassin by the a Jewish terrorist group just prior to Statehood, Jewish Professor Benny Morris in a recent book - "1948" has documented what really happened, village by village. The Israeli army fired mortors into Arab neighborhoods in many towns and villages and once the people fled, blew up their houses so they couldn't come back.).
In 1948 there were 350,000 people in what is now Jordan, 450,000 Arabs in the West Bank (Jerusalem had a Jewish majority from around 1900) and about 900,000 Arabs and 650,000 Jews in what became Israel. Over 700,000 Arabs fled their homes and lands in Israel in terror, taken by the 650,000 Jews resident in Israel at independence (mostly recent European immigrants). Zionists then recruited Jews from all over the middle east to come to Israel - 800,000 came - some voluntarily, many with some duress from Arab governments that doubted their loyalty. Egypt confiscated the property of all rich people - Jews, Greeks, Christians, Muslims.
Israel is there to stay and there were many wrongs committed in the past by many people, including the Arabs. But saying that Israel somehow has the right to expel the Muslim inhabitants of the West Bank and take their land is ridiculous and contrary to international laws passed after the evils of colonialism, Russian pograms against the Jews prior to WWI and Nazi "lebensraum" policies in the 1930's and 40's.
if that is true you should have no problem linking it here. Otherwise you are lying.
You don't seem capable of distinguishing propaganda from reality.So much of your comment is just made up nonsense.
Dir Yassin a massacre. just one more example of pallywood propaganda.It is well done, but it can not stand up to scrutiny.
Was There a Massacre at Deir Yassin?
The pro-PLO camp says yes; the historical documentation says otherwise
Historical and Investigative Research, 20 Nov 2005
by Francisco Gil-White
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/deir-yassin.htm
Preface
KPR37, EVEN if there was no killing in Deir Yassin and the residense left just to get away from the fighting, WHY would the people not be allowed to return to their homes after the fighting was over?
Would it be because the Jews wanted a "homeland" that was Muslim free? Kind of like the NAZIs wanted to have a Europe that was Jew free?
KPR37 : Here you go, courtesy of the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs : http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/The+Palestinian+National+Charter.htm
As for Deir Yassin, excuse me if I laugh at the source of your information : http://www.hirhome.com/
Someone who's blatantly pro-Israel, refutes Global Warming, shows a clear hatred of muslims, has absolutely no expertise in History or the Middle-East(he's an Anthropologist), got fired from the University he worked at ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Gil-White#Political_activism ).
All peer-reviewed history recognizes this as a massacre, the only ones refuting it are people like Gil-White who have an axe to grind and absolutely no expertise in the field
All peer-reviewed history recognizes this as a massacre
But you choose not to link it for some reason ? (LOL)
http://www.2nd-thoughts.org/deir_yassin.html
If anyone wants truth, do research into who started the first bombings in what is now called Israel. Look up information on the Irgun and the Haganah, for starters. They were Jewish terror groups that bombed schools, markets, and other public places, highjacked planes, bombed hotels, killed British Christians, Arabs, even fellow Jews to further their goals. This all goes back to the 1930s. Bombings on buses and trains were commonplace. Israeli terror created Palestinian terror. You can't bomb people's children in their schools, and bomb them on buses, in cafes, in marketplaces, in places of worship, in hotels, etc., without them turning it around on you. It doesn't work that way.
Israel even attacked U.S. interests - and tried to pin it on Egypt to start a war.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/lavon.html
Research things for yourself - there is such a wealth of information about the widespread terror tactics of Israelis against Palestinians and people deserve to have BOTH sides of a story.
There was a lie about Deir Yassin. Irgun claimed it killed 240 people instead of 100 to increase the terror effect and proudly showed the international press stacks of bodies. The Jewish Authority condemned and apologized for the massacre. Albert Einstein, the famous historian Hannah Arendt and and other notable American Jews condemned the massacre and Irgun and M. Begin in a letter to the NY Times of 1948 (available on the webb).
Not all of the wrongs of the past can be remedied. Interestingly, Menachen Begin, head of Irgun at the time of the massacre, later became Prime Minister of Israel and made peace with Anwar Sadat of Egypt - two former terrorists going for peace. Unfortunately, Netanyahu didn't learn from the example.
KPR37: I'll link to them once you start giving *REAL AND SERIOUS* sources of information rather than blatang propaganda. I mean, look at the site you just linked to : http://www.2nd-thoughts.org/id3.html
Maurice Ostroff is a founder member of the international Coalition of Hasbara
Volunteers, better known by its acronym CoHaV, (star in Hebrew), a world-wide
umbrella organization of volunteers
Mr. Ostroff holds a masters degree in industrial engineering, a B.Sc. degree in
mathematics and physics and a B.Sc. (Engineering) degree in electrical
engineering
The guy has absolutely no expertise in History, he openly says that the aim of the website is pro-Israel propaganda (Hasbara as he says himself).
So how about you come up with something factual instead of the crap you've been sending our way ? I dismantled your assertion on the PLO charter so easily it was laughable. It's up to you to show a bit of credibility, not me.
Thank you for the laugh. It's funny that you think that way.
Your link is not for the "Palestinian liberation Organization" charter
. it is not the charter of the PLO.
it makes no claim that it is the charter of the PLO. did you bother to read your link ?
if you did, why did you not notice that there is no mention of the "Palestinian liberation Organization" The PLO in your link ?
please show me, where in the document, you claim to be the charter of the PLO ( Palestinian liberation Organization ) that the claim is made.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/The+Palestinian+National+Charter.htm
Have you considered that the name on your link "the Palestinian national Charter" is different than "Palestinian liberation Organization" charter,that you claim it to be ?
cant really take you seriously,can we now ?
Now, here is my link, from Yale University's internal law center
Palestinian liberation origination (PLO) charter http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp
This is in fact the Charter of the PLO, as I claimed.
Can you read properly ? or just trolling ?
newsvine get smarter here.
KPR37 you're such an idiot it's not even funny.
What part of : "The following is the complete and unabridged text of the Palestinian
National Covenant, as published officially in English by the PLO*, based largely
on the text adopted earlier in 1964."
and
"In his letter
of September 9, 1993 to Prime Minister Rabin, Yasser Arafat stated that
those articles which deny Israel's right to exist or are inconsistent with the
PLO's new commitments to Israel following their mutual recognition, are no
longer valid. Several of the key articles to be amended are highlighted
below."
did you not understand ? You're too dumb to even know that the Palestinian National Charter is the PLO's charter, the PLO being the representative of the palestinian people. Read the 2 charters, and be surprised at how identical they are. The only difference is that you linked to the *original* from 1968, while the other one is the amended one.
You're really looking like a clown now.
Religious nuts in any religion are trouble makers. Almost all the time they are a very organized vocal minority. The problem arises when the majority who may be open minded get the idea that they should allow these monsters to have their say. They simply do not understand that these people have a mind set that says their way or no way. A secular state sets up laws for the state. With regards to religion, I can practice my religion as long as it does not step on someone else. In my church or temple, i might require people to remove their shoes or for women to sit on one side and men on the other. Outside my church everything is secular. The state operates by secular law. Not Abrahams law, not Moses law, not Jesus law or Mohammed law but secular law. If want to place the 10 commandments on a wall of my church or temple, that is my right. I cannot place them on a public building. I might want to place the Quran at the center of my mosque. I cannot place it at the center of a public building. I might want to have the Four Noble Truths listed on a wall of my temple. Fine, but not on a wall of a public building. If I make a contract with the city of NYC for public transportation, I cannot demand that women sit at the back of the bus. You have to make this very clear to everyone. You do otherwise and you are breaking the law and will go to jail for it.
Gee. I'm jewish, but to me, those bearded hoologans are no different than the Jihad...The Jewish Al-Qaida.
Same-O same-O. Orthadox= Fundamentalism whether Christian,Jew or Muslim, fundamintalists are terrorists! What's there to understand? Pretty sad how afraid men are of women. I'd rather be Gay than be a straight male afraid of women.
dam i guess they didnt get the memo that the sweetest thing god ever made was a woman !!!!
As an educated woman what i can only say is: How much rubbish!. You are all full of crap.... tons of bull@!$%#.
maggie may, as an uneducated man, could you tell me who you were responding to?
I mean, not to sound too much like a man, but why do "educated" women always expect men to know what they are talking about?
Any Religion or Government with the Word Ultra attached is cause for concern.
Judge Deborah in the Old Testament, Prescilla and Aquilla, Apostle Paul's helpers and minister and Phoebe, another helper and Lydia, another helper, Tryphosa another helper... in the New Testament.
Why Israel is walking backward?
Please read the Word of God carefully as it says that "God was the God of Abraham, God of Issac, God of Jacob..." They need to understand what that means. And God is also God of the 21st Century.
Israel please move onto the 21st century. I do believe they have satellite; or they take their satellite down, back to the God of Abraham's time.
It's not Israel, but the ultra orthodox in Israel that are acting this way. With the right wing religious coalition in control we may see them giving this minority group more concessions on what they want. The ultraorthodox are the Jewish version of Fundamentalist Islam.
These Ultra Orthodox Jews sound/act exactly like Islamic radicals. Religion always seems to bring out the worst humanity has to offer--demanding barbaric mentality and behavior. I wonder how we will outlast the destructive imperative of faith.
This article and it's attendant comments are very illuminating in a murky, foggy, dank and depressing sort of light.
Gee, "Ultra Orthodox are giving Jews a bad name" - sums up most of the comments here.
Many though try to change the subject..."let's not talk about Jews let's talk about how bad Muslims are".
Guess it is up to me to remind people of the secular Jews continuous oppressions, invasions, crimes against humanity...But to this crowd it would be: "What oppressions, invasions and crimes against humanity? Let's change the subject and talk about Muslims".
Israel a light upon the world