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Subscribe to RSSISLAMABAD - After a decade of diplomatic crises, see-sawing tensions, and increasing frustration on both sides, 2012 promises to mark the re-defining moment for the alliance between the U.S. and Pakistan.
The last decade has seen a growing sense of dissatisfaction in American circles at Pakistan's unwillingness or inability to tackle its extremist elements in the way the U.S. wishes, combined with deepening resentment in Pakistan about what's seen as America's "imperial" attitude.
"We are blamed for U.S. failures, all that happens in Afghanistan is attributed to Pakistan," said one Pakistani military official. "We have had enough. The U.S. should take their business elsewhere."
Asif Hassan / AFP - Getty Images
Women supporters of Pakistani political and Islamic party Jammat-e-Islami (JI), stage an anti-US protest rally in Karachi on December 20.
To that end, Pakistan recently kicked a leg out from under the American mission in neighboring Afghanistan, shutting down the NATO supply routes after a deadly cross-border attack in late November in which 24 Pakistani soldiers were killed at two border posts. After a year of diplomatic clashes and public tongue-lashings, it is this incident that seems to have caused the most severe rupture in relations and made the alliance much more difficult to mend.
The U.S. military investigation into the episode found that Pakistani troops had fired first, but laid blame with both sides for an inherent mistrust and subsequent miscommunications that led to the exchange of fire. The Pakistan military, which declined to participate in the American investigation, has yet to release its own detailed findings, but did issue a terse statement in response to the initial U.S. release, calling their inquiry "short on facts."
Documents shared with NBC News from the Pakistan military's internal incident briefing show a significant divergence of narratives that could prove problematic for the two countries to ultimately reconcile.
The U.S. report, based on an unclassified version released publicly last week, stated the Pakistan military "did not provide information identifying" the locations of the border posts that were attacked. In contrast, the Pakistani military's incident briefing concluded: "It is not possible that ISAF/NATO did not know these to be our posts." A Pakistani military official told NBC News in early December that the posts had been established "almost three months ago," and "soon after" they were established, "ISAF forces are notified through Liaison Officer at BCC [Border Coordination Center] and were provided with all necessary information."
The timeline established in the U.S. report includes the determination that the first shots were fired from Pakistan's side of the border, stating that "Machine gun and mortar fire…from the border ridge line was the catalyst for engagement." Subsequent firing by Coalition forces, the investigation found, "was executed in self defense." Pakistani officials have maintained, both in public statements and in internal military documents, that the attack "was an unprovoked act of blatant aggression."
Though cross border attacks have occurred before, the reaction by Pakistan's establishment to this latest attack has been much more fierce than in years past -- a function, some analysts say, of the higher death toll, as well as the country's current state of affairs.
Defense analyst Ayesha Siddiqa, author of "Military Inc.", believes Pakistan's own evolution over the last decade contributed to its response.
"It no longer sees itself as this tiny, timid country, always on the defensive," said Siddiqa. "It's a country which has a medium-sized military power, nuclear weapons, and the vanity which comes with having this non-conventional defense. So it wants to be taken more seriously. And it doesn't want to compromise on that."
The U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan, Cameron Munter, insists that despite the tensions, the lines of communication "at the highest civilian and military levels" remain open.
"General Dempsey has spoken with General Kayani. General Mattis has spoken with Kayani. I have met with Foreign Minister Khar," said Munter. "We are committed to our relationship."
Faisal Mahmood / Reuters
Images of daily life, political pursuits, religious rites and deadly violence.
That relationship, according to Pakistani military and government officials, will have to take on a different form in the year ahead.
"The arrangement will now be formalized and reduced to writing," said a Pakistani government official. "Even if the Government was to restore some concessions, the Army will not forget the spilling of blood."
Pakistan's Parliamentary Committee on National Security is said to be reviewing the US-Pakistan relationship and is preparing recommendations to present to the government. Back-channel negotiations are reportedly ongoing at all levels, but so far, the supply lines remain closed and the public sentiment remains strongly anti-American.
Siddiqa believes the longer this continues, the more difficult it will be to bring on board the general population with any attempt to reconcile political and military relations.
"There is this narrative that's been built, vis-a-vis the U.S. in the past four or five years," said Siddiqa. "It's been so negative, that socially, it will be difficult to build back up that relationship."
In these early days of the new year, there is not yet a clear indication of how and when that rebuilding will occur.
"We could not be good allies," said one Pakistani military official. "At least let us be better strangers."
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Interesting how the Pakistani government, and especially their military, are more than willing to lay as much blame as possible for their current ills on the U.S. but seem unwilling or unable to accept any on themselves. Let's cut our losses and our ties with them and get out and leave them to their own devices and see what happens. Let their good friends and neighbors the Chinese foot the bill for them. They deserve each other!
1. Chinese are very smart. Except talking they won't do much.
2. Pakistan having travelled too much down the road on Islamic radicalism and terrorism are more dangerous to China than the US. Pakis have become global expoters of islamic radicalism and terrorism.
3. We should not yield to Paki blackmails. We had enough of them.
I don't think the Chinese see it that way. The Pakistan military, which controls Pakistan, is not radicalized, and they share a common enemy: India. That makes for alliances. Neither Russia nor China have been particularly happy with our presence in Afghanistan, which is heavily dependent on Pakistan being a friendly country.
We don't really have a lot of money left anyway, and the Pakistanis sense that - they are probably more than happy to cozy up with the Arabs (where Islamic radicalization wouldn't be a problem anyway) and with China and Russia.
Let's just walk away, give away all our mid-eastern influence and become just another regional power. Good idea, huh?
Until we can get Afghanistan stable enough for us to leave that country, we have no choice but to continue our relationship with Pakistan. In case you hadn't noticed Afghanistan is a land-locked country, and we don't have any other countries willing to let us use their territory as a supply line. Pakistan is going to be a big problem for several years to come, but that's better than both Pakistan and Afghanistan being a big problem for several decades. Patience is the key here, no matter how upset we might be with them right now.
Pakistan fought four wars with India and they lost them all badly.
In 1971, Pakis established a world record in surrender of more than 90000 "brave" Paki soldiers despite Chinese and US support!
Yes, Pakis are good in battling unarmed minorities and that too in large numbers (50 armed police or soldiers attacking terrified minorities/women), women and other helpless.
If a few militants could sneak in and attack their primary Naval base in Karachi, what are these seventh century Islamic bigots barking?
Now Pakistan does not need external enemies. It will plunge into bloody civil wars just like Iraq. Here Saudis and even the US can't stop what will go on!
INDIA: On a Goat and a Stick:
The problem with India is that is built on a system of cultural
and societal values based on Hinduism which is a cult. Nations built on a cult
seldom survive in the long run. You can only take it so far based on symbolisms
of a goat and a stick with a skinny little man aka gandhi banging boys at night
and spinning wheels during daytime.
Pakistan is a nation of 'terror'-holics. And like anyone with an addiction, its always someone elses fault why they are a failure. Stop serving them drinks. We do not need them nearly as much as they need us. That is obvious to anyone but a jingoistic Pakistani who won't listen to anything outside his own thick skull.
I agree.... let's cut and run from these 'back-stabbers". We've got OBL. Our job is done. We can use the money to create jobs in America.
I'm sure they felt otherwise when we dumped billions of dollars of aid into their country and economy. Leave the middle east to fight out their own problems. It's just another slum.
Let me enter Mexico, shoot a few border patrol people on the american side and then claim self defense. makes sense?
Your name says it all. Hopefully you never will be.
Hinduism is a cult......? Do you people intentionally post the most racist, inflammatory, bigoted sh!t you can possibly think of to troll anyone naive enough to try and have a legitimate discussion on this website?
America is founded on a cult. Italy is founded on a cult. Pretty much every western country is. "In God We Trust". "One Nation Under God." How about the clear fact that separation of church and state has been, in our lifetime, and continues to be - a complete myth that just sounded good on paper. How about the fact that only Christians, with few exceptions, have been president?
What do you think religion is? If Hinduism is a cult then Christianity is sure as god damn hell a cult. At least their religious symbols are tangible and can be proven to exist. Many Catholic institutions still operate entirely in eccliastic, sing-song Latin. Chanted Latin. What do you think so many of the Catacombs under Rome and even Paris were for?
Do you think that somehow because their sacred objects actually exist it somehow maks their religion inferior due to it being more visible?
Please do the world a favor and go die in a fire. Don't start it though - your non-existent God would send you to hell for that.
Jameel, I'm not sure at this point what is worse. The misguided individual above who made the ridiculous statement above regarding Hinduism or your response. Yes, sadly there are people that intentionally post racist and inflammatory statements. As adults, we have two major choices. We can either follow the old saying that says, "It is better to keep ones mouth shut and let the world think one a fool, than to open ones mouth and prove it.", as was done above by KHRM. Or we can allow ourselves to be goaded and respond with equally hateful and racist comments of our own. It is a mistake to try to lump all under one category because of the ignorance of a few. I feel everyone is entitled to the respect for ones own beliefs whether we agree with them or not. I ask only the same in return. I am not trying to offend, but just offering some perspective from another point of view.
GOOD ALLY, BAD ALLY
This has all the elements of a con game. Pakistan has treated this single incident, which admittedly wasn't intentional, as the breach of trust worthy of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. One might wonder what Pakistan stands for and what they are against. Was it a goal of Pakistan to purposely harbor anti-American groups? Were they thoroughly embarrassed by the US action that killed Ben Laden on Pakistan's soil even though America made no secret about that being their MAJOR goal for being there in the first place? Had Ben Laden been killed early on, America would likely already have left for home. Pakistan didn't have a problem with America looking for Ben Laden for years where he couldn't be found in Afghanistan. Pakistan likely has been an ally of the US in name only and offered a US route into Afghanistan to keep America occupied for years while cheerfully accepting America's foreign aid. They have had little skin in the game until their true allegiance became uncovered. They have been nitpicking everything about the US presence since the Ben Laden incident. Pakistan surely doesn't want to have appeared anti-Taliban once the US leaves. ZEEK
Why did we not attack Saudia Arabia? After all, 17 of the 19 hijackers were from there. And what about the 11 million illegal mexicans hiding here. Why can't we find them?
Since the Pakistanis don't want to play nice, we should take our billions of dollars and go home. The country is an open cesspool of a violent and fictitious religion, a complete disregard for human life, and an alliance based on lies and deceit. We need the money at home, now, and Pakistan can go directly to hell, no virgins allowed.
I keep a mental picture of these Muslim nutcases looking for their virgins before they realize how freakin' HOT it is in hell!
Do you REALLY wonder what Pakistan is all about? They are about sucking all the $ they can out of the dumb Americans and meanwhile sucking the dicks of the Taliban and the Al Quaeda folk they play host to. How in the world can anyone continue to justify our so-called relationship (certainly not an alliance) with this leech-state and its filthy primeval retrograde "religion" that hasn't brought any good to humanity in many, many centuries but instead sucks up all the scientific, technological, and medical inventions of the west (and of Israel) that it can't create for itself, then turns these inventions back on the civilized countries that educated their young people, God alone knows why.
Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are primarily culprits in the global menace of Islamic radicalism and terrorism. Can we travel and live safely in many places?
Oil companies, lobbyists and then Saudis determined the US and hence other allies foreign policies and actions. Where were the needs for 1991 and 2003 Iraqi wars?
Compare the oil prices before and after!
How can we have both the backstabbing and blackmailing Saudi Arabia and Pakistan as allies on "war on terror"?
Their alliance has cost us too dearly and we and many allies are almost bankrupt!
I really am wondering just how far the US Education System has FAILED.
How about doing the Research. How about listening to those with Experience. How about listening to those that have survived this long.
Pakistan is a Islamic Nation, the Pakistanis People demand the Hatred of the US, the Imams at the Mosques constantly preach Hate against the US, this is your so called "Democracy", "Freedom of Religion".
It is just the Pakistanis Government that is the Ally of the US, not the majority of the Pakistanis People.
There are elements within the Pakistanis Military that support the Pakistanis Government and those that are Fundamentalist Islamic Believers.
The proof of the Pakistanis Military loyal to the Pakistanis Government and the War Against Terrorism is the Pakistanis Full on Pakistanis Military Raids of Northwestern Pakistan, Swat Valley. Of course the Pakistanis Government faced large protests by the Pakistanis People because of these Pakistanis Military actions against the Islamic Jihadists.
This kind of ignorance (evident by many of the posts) is just like those that cannot add 2 + 2, and keep coming up with 5 as the answer. example: Believing that the "Arab Spring", "Egyptian Revolution", etc. was all about Democracy, without bothering to look at who benefited as the motive(s);
that's Right it was NOT a coincidence that US Ally President of Egypt was Overthrown, the US Ally President of Yemen was Overthrown, Iraq was lost to Iran, US Ally Gaddaffi (go research President Obama's Prisoners at Gaddaffi's Prisons) was Overthrown and about 20,000 Shoulder Fired Anti Aircraft SA-7 Missiles are now in the hands of the Islamic Jihadists believed to be used to shoot down US Commercial Aircraft since their bombing attempts have failed. Iran now has Strategic Access and Control of the Suez Canal thru the Muslim Brotherhood. Iran now has multiple Mediterranean Ports (Egypt and Libya) to attack the Crusaders (Europeans), etc..
Another example of the ignorance:
Seems that you fail to use the old noggin. Osama Bin Laden formed Al Quada as Anti Saudi Government, Anti US, as Fundamentalist Islamic Jihadists. That is why after the 1993 First World Trade Center Bombing the Saudi Arabian Law Enforcement Apprehended Osama Bin Laden and offered President Clinton Extradition. President Clinton refused the offer, and refused to give the Saudi Arabians US Evidence of Osama Bin Laden's involvement with the 1993 First World Trade Center Bombing, so the Saudi Arabians did not even have sufficient evidence to hold Osama Bin Laden and by Law had to release Osama Bin Laden.
You want the truth or only what you want to hear. President Obama TOLD all of you his intentions since 2009; but, no all of you refuse to listen to everything and only like to hear what you want to hear:
August 10, 2009 President Obama:
By the way it is NOT 11 Million Illegal Aliens at the US, it is over 23 Million Illegal Aliens that were counted during the 2006 Nationwide Demonstrations of Illegal Aliens protesting against US Congress passing President Bush's Illegal Immigration Crisis Response Act of 2006 into US Law.
The proof of President Obama's intent is his 2011 Illegal Alien Policy of "Only Criminal Undocumented Workers will be deported". Of course President Obama does not realize that the majority are Felony Criminals, as they do not fill out Employer Paperwork and "Work for Cash Only", this is Felony Criminal Tax Evasion (no employer paperwork, State and Federal Income Tax Withholding).
What the F**k are you talking about, where do you keep coming up with that nonsense.
Weeks after the 9/11 2001 Attacks our Mission was to: 1. Overthrow the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban Government., 2. Reestablish what was left of the Afghan Democracy, that we abandoned during the 1990s., 3. Seize and secure locations for the arrival of the US Military Conventional Warfare Forces., 4. Mission later added on after President Bush Amended the US No Assassination Policy, 2006, the Termination of Osama Bin Laden.
How we did this, weeks after the 9/11 2001 Attacks, half went North to link up with the Northern Alliance and attack the Islamic Jihadist Training Camps, we (because we had been here before training the 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen, knowledge of the languages, cities, and terrain) went into the Afghan Cities to disrupt the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban Government and their Militias.
I will tell you this History lesson based on Firsthand Experience, JUST ONE TIME, after this I will copy your posts to notepad and save them on my computer so that if you spout the same nonsense I will embarrass you by reposting your post:
From the 1950s to the 1970s, the US and USSR were competing against each other to gain the Alliance of the Afghan Government, the Afghan Government was playing both sides, resulting in the Afghans getting Electric Power Stations, Telephones, Radio Stations, Irrigation Canals, new Buildings, new Airports, Roads, Highways, etc.. Half the Afghan Population were Pro US, the other half were Pro USSR. Eventually, the Pro USSR Afghans started asking the USSR for USSR Military Intervention, which they did in 1979, as the USSR 40th Army Occupation.
The problem with the USSR 40th Army Occupation, was that they started USSR Total Conventional Warfare (think WWII), resulting in the massacres of ANY Afghans, did not matter if the Afghans were Pro USSR or Pro US. We are talking about Carpet Bombing, Airstrikes, Millions of Area Denial Weapons (Landmines), Tank Divisions destroying Towns and Villages, the use of USSR Chemical Weapons (Agent Purple, Mustard Gas, Poisoning Water Wells, etc. that do not stay in just one area).
So the millions of Pro USSR Afghans flee to USSR Backed Fundamentalist Islamic Iran.
Millions of Pro US Afghans flee into Northeastern Afghanistan (Pamir Mountains) and Northwestern Pakistan. Senator Charles Wilson, Democrat Texas visits the Afghan Refugee Camps at Pakistan, he demands US Involvement to get the USSR out of Afghanistan.
US Military Training Teams are sent to US Ally Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars. I was with one of the US Military Training Teams. We start to notice that some of the Iranian Fighters are actually Afghans. Iran a USSR Ally, Iraq a US Ally.
Other US Military Training Teams are already at Afghanistan as Operation Cyclone. We are rotated from US Ally Iraq to Pakistan/Afghanistan to replace them to train the 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen, NOT Osama Bin Laden, Al Quada, nor the Taliban, as Osama Bin Laden was still living with his rich relatives at Saudi Arabia forming his new Islamic Jihadist Organization, Al Quada. It was standard operating procedure for us to photograph, fingerprint, write detailed information (name, place of brith, date of birth, height, weight, age, hair color, eye color, relatives, etc.) on each person we trained (and do not even think that the other Teams did, as we kept their books of information, photos, etc.). It was standard operating procedure for us to accompany those we trained into combat to make on the spot corrections and observe to make changes to future training, so basically we were combatants.
The Only CIA that Osama Bin Laden would have been associated to would have been the Culinary Institute of America at NYC during the 1993 First World Trade Center Bombing at NYC. Almost laughing do any of you know just how many Osamas there are; think how many Husseins there are (President Sadam Hussein, President Barack Hussein Obama, etc.).
We are sent back to US Ally Iraq (before the end of the Iran Iraq Wars).
So after the defeat of the USSR 40th Army, the US Abandons US Ally 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen and the Afghan people are left witha War Torn Nation. Senator Charles Wilson, Democrat Texas pleads with US Congress for money to help US Ally Afghanistan rebuild. US Congress rejects Senator Charles Wilson's pleas. The US Ally 1980s Pro US Afghan are losing popularity of the Afghan people since they are no longer supported or backed by the US Government, as the US Ally 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen are out of Funds, minimal weapons and ammunition, many killed or crippled, etc. (why Afghanistan to this day has so many Widows).
The millions of Pro USSR Afghans return from Fundamentalist Islamic Iran (USSR Backed). After years of living under Fundamentalist Islam, most of these Pro USSR Afghans became Fundamentalist Islamic. They become the 1990s Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban.
As demanded as a Duty by the Holy Koran (Quran) and the Islamic Laws derived from the Holy Koran (Quran) the 1990s Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban systematically massacre the Collaborators to the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers; specifically, the 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen, their Families, their Relatives, In Laws, Friends, etc.. In the Afghan Cities the trees look like Christmas Trees, except the ornaments are the 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen and any Collaborators to the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers, this was documented by the USSR Tass News Agency as all other News Agencies were banned from Afghanistan by the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban (supported by USSR Backed Fundamentalist Islamic Iran). The Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban become the Government of Afghanistan, and then chase the remaining 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen into Pakistan and massacre them there also; then establish the Pakistanis Taliban to make sure that no 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen can ever rise up again.
The Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban Government starts destroying everthing that is "Western", "Modern", "Non Islamic"; the lights go out at Afghanistan after the Electrical Power Stations are destroyed, some of the Irrigation Canals are filled in, etc.. US Ally "Little America" Afghanistan is Illegal.
After the use of Chemical Weapons by the US Ally Iraq ended the Iran Iraq Wars, we return to US Military Bases at Europe. The US Military Training Teams assigned to SAD are disbanded, I return back to the Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Europe. We are later reformed to conduct Missions at other Nations (Somalia, Sudan, Kuwait, First Gulf War, etc.).
Then the 9/11 2001 Attacks occur, see the first paragraph.
After US Congress Declares War With Iraq, 2002 Iraqi War Resolution we are redeployed from Afghanistan to Northern Iraq to conduct Operation Hotel California, 2002-2003. Afterwards, we go back to the US Military Bases at Europe for R&R, replace our dead, retrain with the replacements, reorganize, conduct refresher Mountain Warfare training with the Deutsche Bundeswehr Commandos, conduct refresher Mountain Warfare training and high altitude acclimatization withthe US Ally Turkey (fighting the Kurdistanis PKK, HPG, KGK). We are sent back to Iraq for various Missions. Eventually, we return to Afghanistan to conduct US Military Asymmetric Mountain Warfare. Every so often some of us are redeployed to conduct other Missions at other Nations (President Obama's Secret Wars). During Libya we were on Standby to be attached to SAD to provide SAD with Security and Targeting and Target Damage Assessment capabilities, fortunately, other Teams from AFRICOM were assigned.
About 20 years from now under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request the Mission Videos (Ground to C4I Helicopter), and the Video Conferences (Pakistan (C4I helicopter) to Afghanistan (Petraeus and Bagram AFB), SOC, JSOC (McRaven), CIA (Penetta), Pentagon, White House); pertaining to the Special Reconnaissance turned into a Direct Action (Raid) at Pakistan. Realize that when you do this we are one day ahead, so that they cannot deny the existence. I tried to explain everything before, by talking around everything, and used the unclassified sources that reflected what I knew, and all the name calling started; so just wait 20 years to learn the truth.
LOL. It is time for Generation X and Generation Y to step up (sign up now, if you are 18 to 20 you will be about age 35 before you are minimally trained and have the minimum operational experience, you will still need languages (College Bachelors) and cultural education (College Bachelors). In less than 6 months (minus one month of Debriefings and After Action Reports, and a few weeks of Outprocessing and Retirement Briefings again) we will go back on Retirement again never to be Recalled to Active Duty again (and again and again) as "Too Old". So we get to spoil our grand children.
Not our problem in less than 6 months.
david: US education has not failed. It is great and I have one too. Let me not give too many details or else some will post: he brags too much.
US/NATO need to understand that this is not cowardly and meek India they
are dealing with.....this is Pakistan they are messing with. Pakistan's response so far has been swift, strong and
meaningful to the US/NATO et al. Americans kicked out of the airbase, logistic
supply support halted to Afghanistan, US ambassador spanked. Obama has put USA to a new low. Even Iran is now militarily threatening USA !!! one would think the americans would be ashamed of the challenges to their stature. Where are our leaders who are taking it on the chin every where they turn. Time for a new leadership in USA.
You mentioned "education" in your first statement. That is not the problem. Those you choose to inform of real world knowledge likely never made it past the second line of your lengthy statement. Comprehending anything beyond LOL seems to be a challenge most today care not to undertake. You are asking people who read the headlines, perhaps watch sound bites on the evening news, or catch snippets on the radio in between Lady Gaga songs to know what is going on in the world. I did not like the effect "the draft" had on our military during Nam. But perhaps that is the only way we will ever get the general population informed as to what it takes to project and defend our way of life on an international basis. So few choose to serve, the military way of life and requirements are only demonstrated in 30 minute History Channel programs. I am rightfully impressed by our military today, and appreciate the treatment they enjoy at home. But people do not understand that we as a country cannot just withdraw to within our own borders and survive as a nation. I salute your service and well stated information. As a vet of Nam (USMC) and much of the cold war (USN), I happily retired in '93 and hope people like you are the norm rather than the exception.
Assuming you actually buy the nonsensical story that we suddenly, in apropos of no information whatsoever that was released, found bin Laden, kept it quiet, sent in two choppers of SEALs, killed him, and one of the choppers crashed and killed Americans.
Because I don't know anyone who believes that incredibly far-fetched story. Laden has been dead for years.
You contradicted your own argument.
Projection. The projection of the American culture is not the business of the military. It is the business of diplomatic and business relations. Furthermore, country-hopping the way we are and clearly setting up democratic satellite states does not aid our business interests. Except, it may be easier for Iraqis to go down the street and get a Big Mac if they aren't ruled by a despot.
Funny, isn't it? How when "Communist" Russia set up satellites all over the world, it was completely evil. When America does it, it's not only okay but every flag-flying fool in the country supports it viciously and to speak against it brings back discussion of the alien and sedition acts. Remember the Roosevelt Corrollary and the Monroe Doctrine? Good times those were when we did a better job of pretending.
Lets take our money and run. Treat them as a terrorist state and not do business with them and see how the will scream.
They have been asking us to leave stupid.
But you forget: They have been "asking" us to leave, but they sure as hell haven't been telling us to keep our $. That I would go for.
Pakis want us to leave!
But they want our tax monies, military equipment, free immigration inside Amerika and whatever is available for free!
They want a Paki mullah for a mosque built in Amerika by the monies of Saudi Arabia and co!
As part of religious freedom, Pakis would like freedom to preach hatred and if possible train in killing of infidels!
We can't leave Pakistan until we can get out of Afghanistan, that is unless you'd like to just abandon the 100,000 US troops we have in Afghanistan. Afghanistan is land-locked and no other country will let us use their air space. Try thinking about the whole picture before you post such nonsense.
Give them a break, most of them cannot find Pakistan on a map, or are too lazy to even bother looking at a map.
Most of the Newsvine Posters do not Post Facts, they rely on emotive non factual uneducated opinions, many also have conditioned thru Twitter Attention Deficit Disorder and can only read one line Twits.
If you tell them that Pakistan is physically connected to Iran, they will start to argue and call you all kinds of names.
Sometimes I wonder.
When the Muslims took over and controlled basically all of Europe and North Africa and the Middle East in the middle ages, did people write the same obscene things about them?
You know, back when people were actually getting killed for being infidels, by the hundreds and thousands. I wonder.
David the fact that everyone is ignorant isn't a free pass for them to act retarded. Get a god damn map and look at it - it's not that hard.
Actually Jameel, The Muslims, Christins, and Jews got along fabulously. Another thing, Muslim scientists were at the forefront of learning during that time. There wasn't the stigma in Muslim culture of being knowledgeable across a wide spectrum. It was the Christians of the period that changed all that. Currently, the situation is reversed except for Muslims living in Western countries.
If rolls were reversed, the US would be far more insenced than Pakistan. The US has been pushing Pakistan for years, bombing in a country with which it is not at war, raids into the same country. What does the US expect. One could ask questions about what the US stands for. It supports countries like Saudia Arabia, yet then bombs Libya. The US has been acting like the KGB for years now.
Good post Clifford. It amazes me to see some of the ignorant comments people put up here. If we keep up this attitude towards the rest of the world, they will all turn against us.
Clifford, I have my doubts that you are an American. There is something a bit ideological and propaganda-like to your comments, rather than calm, reasoned common sense. In other words you are demonizing the U.S. a bit too wholeheartedly rather than couching your wisdome in the calm, objective phrases of scientific observations. Just sayin.
Lil' Debbie, you should take another look at your own comments. They sound just as unreasoning and full of hatred as anything I have read on this board. You perhaps do not realize this, but to someone who does not share your hatred of Muslims, you come across as an unreasoning fanatic.
Since 2001 Pakis have been backstabbing the NATO forces.
Bob Woodward mentioned in his book how Pakis evacuated top Taliban and al-Qaeda militants from Kandahar in 2001!
Declare Pakistan a terrorist nation and an enemy!
Hating inventors and exporters of Islamic radicalism and terrorism does not become hatred of Muslims.
Some are not willing to accept the realities even!
I would have expected that type of lack of knowledge post from someone else.
Was Bob Woodward here (Afghanistan) 2001, NOPE. As previously, all News Media except USSR Tass (later Russian Federation) were not allowed in Afghanistan by the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban Government.
The people that evacuated the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban, and Al Quada, were the Pakistanis Taliban, and the Army of Islam at Pakistan (not the Pakistanis Government Military) as assited by the Pakistanis people; NOT the Pakistanis Government.
We were here weeks after the 9/11 2001 Attacks, half went North to link up with the Northern Alliance and attack the Islamic Jihadist Training Camps, we (because we had been here before training the 1980s Pro US Afghan Muhajeen, knowledge of the languages, cities, and terrain) went into the Afghan Cities to disrupt the Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban Government and their Militias. During this time I did not see Bob Woodard here, basically he is a non participant writing crap based on information from non participants.
That was not a lack of knowledge put the deliberate planting of misinformation to confuse the issues.
You were responding to an Indian agent writing under western moniker...you will find him spouting hate and twisting facts whenever Pakistan or Saudi Arabia is mentioned in an article...and you will find him spewing the same vitriol against Pakistan in repeated posts
I just discount what ever he says...usually lies and made up 'facts', occasionally dropping names such as Bob Woodard's here, nobody cross checks but you caught him out...at it.
Sid: You are an agent for the Sunni Islamic radicalas and terrorists giving spins and twists. You are a Paki and Saudi agent. I also ignore likes of you! I have already mentioned on this. I can change humans. But not likes of you!
david: I expected more realities from you. It was back door evacuation by the Paki army of the ISI, al-Qaeda and Taliban by plane. You know Mullah Omar and probably Osama escaped in motor cycles. Even Indian intelligence confirmed these information to the US agencies.
Here Gen Mush was a key player and he was responsible for shielding Osama.
Despite likes of you why did it take so much time to eliminate Osama in Pakistan?
It was well known all over the world about the double talks, double deals and backstabbing by Pakistan except to the US agencies and politicians.
It is better that US agencies work in coordination with agencies of India, Russia and others instead of working under the directions of Saudis, oil companies and their lobbyists with bloaed egos instead of getting badly beaten as in Iraq.
Lastly, Bob Woodward has lots of credibility and he can't be dismissed as you have done.
david: You mentioned about NA.
Before the US, Gen Rostum (can't recall the name right now) was battling Taliaban and its masters ISI in Afghanistan. NA assisted you people. Still, as soon as NATO forces won, you people banished Gen Rostum with the stick of "human rights" to Turkey. Now he is back.
For you people backstabbing Pakis were the advisors. You people don't know how to keep allies for future battles.
What craps of "human rights" Pakis and Saudis have?
Do you agree that half of NATO forces deaths and losses of faces are due to backstabbing Paki allies and of course and stupidity of some beyond imagination!
With allies like Pakis and Saudis, you don't need enemies!
SHAME ON INDIANS..... For financing the
terrorists waging this war. Shame on the Indians from running away scared from
terrorists and taking bullets in their back. Shame on the Indians from counting
the GDP statistics while American and Pakistani blood was being shed in the
battlefield trying to make the world safe.
Is this the kind of neighbors you would want living next door to you and your
kids??? HECK NOT IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD !!!!!
SERIOUSLY lil'debbie?
Are you kidding? This neo-McCarthyism absolute nonsense needs to end, violently. Like, this year. I'm serious. It is the very epitome of calm reasoned, common sense to empathize. Or did they not teach you that in the 50's - 70's when your stupid self went to school?
Read a book. If you know how to read - previous evidence suggests you do not. He said nothing that can be remotely construed as untrue or biased.
Too much garbage going on. The Pakis are not our loyal friends. If they were, they would not have hidden Bin Laden, or attacked our Embassy, or attack our troops. The Pakistan leaders are snakes. The gave secrets of our fighter jets to the Chinese too. Pakistan has a lot of our jets. I don't know why we don't just pull out and stay away from those snakes. Stop all aid also. Dirty rotten bastards.
Amen Joe!
Look at the photos! Even children are not left out in the dirtiest Islamic swamp on earth, Pakistan.
Pakis and Saudis need to do business in their own Muslim nations and not in non-Muslim nations starting from the US.
So why not Pakis in the US and other non-Muslim nations pack their baggages and go elsewhere to do their business?
We should not leave a single Paki liabilitiy and curse on a society and nation starting from criminal Gen Mush in Britain and his son in the US.
Criminal Gen Mush had Osama evacuated from Afghanistan and gave shelter and now he is acting as if he did not know!
There is nothing like a moderate Paki even in their army! When a children is brought up as shown in photos, will there be exceptions?
We should get out of the middle east. Either that, or we will eventually be pushed out. Why pour more billions down a rat hole, while our own country crumbles?
The entire reason we are at the border firing accross is because the Taliban and Al Qaida are finding refuge in Pakistan. They attack in civilian clothes in Afghanistan, then sneak accross the border into Pakistan and hide among the civilians. The Pakistanis are too inept or too unwilling to take care of their own cult like jihadists at the border.
Pakistan has been supporting the madrassas that churn out these virgin seeking jihadists for centuries. Now they can't control them. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if most of the Pakistani military had secret liking for these border crossing jihadists. It's clear by the street protesters that they hate all that America is.
I often wonder if there was a diliberate attampt to lure the unbeliever superpowers into the region then defeat them in guerilla warfare.
You can tell who is hostile to whom. There are 400,000 Pakistani-Americans working, owning businesses, living in owned homes in America, worshipping in American mosques. There are zero American-Pakistanis living as Pakistani citizens. A Christian American immigrant living in Pakistan is as good as dead.
This is great news to me. The less we have to do with Pakistan the better. I don't want any of their products either. Let them sell their merchandise to South Africa, Smolia Pirates, or anyone else they want but us. Lets take our money, our toys and our boys and go home.
Gotta have some kind of response to "why were you hiding bin Laden???"
They wanted to blackmail and extract as much as they could to "locate" him!
Just get out of the middle east. Call in 50 years and ask how they are doing. Wait for another 50 years.
These ' SHOCK and AWE' yankees should be starved to death as it's supply line is closed.
You are just another @!$%#-eating paki....you are the ones who will and deserve to "starve." Meanwhile go ahead and ask America to stop supporting your stinking excuse for a country with the billions of money that would be better spent at home. Then that might be soomething worth reading about or listening to.
For you Islamic religious Nazis, the whole non-Muslim world is "yankees."
Since 47, you people have been looting, stealing, hating, kidnapping, raping of minorities in the name of cleaning of Pakistan.
Now ifidels and jihad are an expanding list to inlcude Muslim sects lke Ahmedias, Sufis and Shiites and tribes like Baloochs, Sindhies, Pashtoons and more.
Do you people know anything else?
If the "yankee" prop were not there, your Pakistan would not have in the map till now!
Do you people have some shame?
Pakistani12345, this is a miserable position you are in when you have your hands asking aid and cursing the hand giving it. For the sake of argument what were you trying to achieve I want to ask being another Pakistani. Yes this is childish thing on grounds fact begs to differ. Work first to clean house, have a meaningful position to support your national decisions. Then when you speak the obvious unjustified strikes rendering 24 dead, you will have a better tone.
Strikes are unjustified, period. But grabbing the nose from wrong side is plain stupid.
Its not a condition of his making. He is clearly fighting it. Your conceited 'holier then thou' attitude is not helpful; if you are indeed a Pakistani it is difficult to believe so; your intellect is reflected in your silly servile rant against Pakistani12345, who is arguably a genuine upfront brave Pakistani, able to stand up and post in a hostile environment...he appears to know what he is talking about.
Here I am presenting couple of links that answers your dubious 'man without a country' slavish mentality. [ Note: People like you don't belong any where, NOT the US, NOT in Pakistan, possibly an Untouchable in India or where ever you spend your pathetic existence]:
No more ‘free run’ in Pakistan-US ties: ISPR
No more ‘free run’ in Pakistan-US ties: ISPR
View Point - Happenings in tha world: PakNationalists - Lies & Truth On US Aid To Pakistan
Canceled
Hamzsque El Sid313, 1) what type of responses did Pakistani12345 actually got, responses that result in fueling more hatred rather than thought provoking. 2) When presenting ones point of view he focuses on people to pause and see his projection on the argument, but his comment actually structured the racialism even more in this blog. 3) Is not Pakistan getting aid…, if not the people, government officials are surely. 4) What makes you a better Pakistani than me?
I am on the same page, but I do not want to give these people more chances to humiliate my Country Pakistan or its People.
Try to understand the difference of a meaningful argument. It is by logic we can make these people listen.
Hamzsque El Sid313, *3) Pakistan has taken aid, but I believe in correcting the house first then go straight things out. Answer me, has the government not have credibility issues.
We should stop all aid money to Pakistan and stop issuing Visas to the Pakis to come here. The Pakis here are a national security threat anyway and they should have their Visas revoked and be sent home. Just stop the money and stop the Visas.
Hey pakistani12345>>>>> GO HOME!! American is not your home. If thats all you can say-> HIt the road. Im sick of being the works police. I don't care what you barbarians do to each other. I can't think of another time that I have read something in a blog and been so mad!!!!! "The mouth runs while the hand is out for money."
Most non-Muslims all over the world agree with you!
You stupid incest redneck. Who borrows/owes China money? Hypocrite.
For give him. He does not know the truth: That he is fed by China...and they could make him die tomorrow if China so ordained...Actually the whole of US will cannibalise itself and die if China so wanted, without it firing a shot in anger.
Lately China is negotiating the take over of Alaskan oil field property...but between his beer and TV he does not know that. Poor simpleton beggar or hypocrite as you said is about right...he does not know that even his beggar bowel is China's property!
kal3750: Ignore Hamzsque El Sid313 and comments like those of him. He is a Paki and Saudi Trojan horse working for their interests and Sunni radical and terrorists. What do they know?
He and likes of him don't know that Saudi Arabia and other Sunni ruled puppets and Pakistan are in world map due to British, US and European nations.
Likes of him are used to blowing the hands that feed them and blowing the bodies that keeps them alive.
About Chinese debts. Yes, we buy their goods and give them jobs and now it is on credit cards. What is the big deal?
Many nations are also living on credit cards and not the stolen ones of others like many Muslim nations.
Some like Sid are not human and we can't put sanity into their heads!
Sorry! All the Muslim worlds problems are due to: Amerika, Zionists, rightist Christians and Tea party people! They are spotless and clean!!
Lastly look at ratings of his posts. Most troll when they see the name!
@!$%# pakistan.
We have sent them billions in financial aid. They were harboring the man we have been chasing for 10 years. Binladen had breakfast and dinner with the Pakistan president. These people will do anything for a dollar. Now China is in that country to keep us from taking their nukes away. FUTURE GLASS FACTORY. Cut the money off to the middle east it's a waste of the tax payers money.
They said it, so let's take them at their word and "take our business elsewhere".
No more aid, no more money, no more Pakistanis allowed to immigrate to this country. Ask and ye shall receive.
That would be wonderful. Could you also please pack 30,000 odd doctors serving US back to Pakistan. That would be great service. Facts: Pakistan lost more than 60 Billion USD in the War OF Terror. What it got back is 5-7 Billion USD with heavy strings attached. Its economy is in tatters because of US war that it had been fighting since the Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan. The Taliban/Al-Qaeda was US creation. Books on Jihad were printed in University of Nebraska at the time of Soviet control of Afghanistan & the poor, illiterate yet wonderful people of various tribes were Radicalized to achieve US Foreign Policy Objectives. Once it was achieved Pakistan was left high & dry to tend to the Problem in Afghanistan & its own border! Pakistan has had enough of US back stabbing. The dirty games CIA has been playing inside Pakistan is known to all. Their aim is fragmenting Pakistan & destroying its Nukes to please Israel & India. That is the Ultimate Game Plan. Pakistanis know it too well. Arch for India has no role in Afghanistan, no boundary with Afghanistan but US gave India a foot-hold there & the Indians are now destabilizing Pakistan from two sides. Pakistanis are no fools, we can see through your designs. No body knows better than us that America is only after its Imperial Interests in our region. And Allies don't harm Allies, while US does, hence US is not an Ally!
Actions speak volumes. Why where they hiding Bin Ladden? The US should wait till they move on Israel and then pay them the consequences. World beware what could be unleashed through ignorance and haste
When Pakistan had a flood, we sent food and water, that is the only( shock and awe) I know about in Pakistan.
By all means, no more visas for Pakis here. They are definitely a security threat. And better still, deport back to their so-called country all of the 400,000 currentlyliving and leechingn off us, scrambling for the dollars and hating us in our own country. They are a plague and deserve only to stew in that pesthole known as the middle east where they belong.
It's easy to drink the kool-aid, but let's take a step back and remember that we are the most powerful nation on Earth with the power to destroy the world even our friends have to be a little fearful of us. We do things that are best for our national interest, while I'm glad we do, other nations are going to have problems with that and they are going to look out for their best interest.
Twenty years ago an American could go just about anywhere in that part of the world and feel safe, within reason, but it's not like that now. Our strength is not only our military but also includes our economy and right now we aren't spending our money wisely given our current conditions. They spend thousands to fight us and we respond spending billions. If we can't destroy their will to fight we will go broke fighting them while our other foes grow stronger. We have forgotten the "Regan Model" and Bush One Model" for fighting these kinds of wars, do what we have to do quickly and get someone else to pay for it.
We were lucky during the tewnty century to have our industrial base untouched but we never upgraded in a major way for the twenty-first century as our foes have now we are lacking caught up in foreign adventures spending our tax dollars. While we feel good kicking butt our money is flowing out of the country instead of into the country.
The real strength of America lies in the notion that I work less hours that my father and make more money, as my father did his father. A man working in a factory could afford a home, a stay at home wife, a car, and still put his kids through college with the pay check.
We need that kick butt American Soldier, but we never should forget that others in the world want to come here for the opportunity afforded here not to join the Military. Least we forget Paskistan acquired Nukes for protection from India, but part of the money to acquire them came from the Arabs after to "72" oil embargo and their desire to have an Arab bomb to protect their natural resources and trade.
We do what's in our best interest and other's do the same. I just hope that we in the West don't force the return of the old Ottman Empire with a young educated population full of hate toward the West and we don't have the industrial base meet the threat!
Thought provoking post.
The Giligan.
To answer your question, China. Not us.
We import almost all of our oil. We manufacture close to nothing in this country. We don't even put pride in our military projects. Our military R & D is performed by and sold to the lowest bidder. They make complete pieces of @!$%# - Humvees with little armor. HK416s that aren't even adopted for service - despite being excellent - in favor of horrible rifles, all the while still using the same garbage rifle made nearly 60 years ago. Wasting money for the past 15+ years on the F-22 Raptor, the single biggest waste of money in the history of American military spending.
Without external suppliers the United States is pretty much screwed unless we A) Nuke everything, at which point we are going to have to nuke EVERYONE - because the world will destroy and ban us if we do use a nuke - or B) We're going to have to mobilize like we did in 41 and get back up off of our lazy fat racist asses.
I would argue that B would be a good solution to getting us out of this depression. Unfortunately World War 3 hasn't started yet.
If real Americans are lucky, they might draft complete jackasses like the people who post here and they'll die or get lost.
Back during the cold WAr the Pakistanis were our most stalwart allies against the communist regimes of Red China and the soviet Union. They supported us in Vietanm, and even when we took on the Chinese in Korea.But now that we have found new friends in Israel, our old friend Pakistan is no longer welcome among our asociates. It has been a time in coming but with friends like the US, no one needs any enemies.
Has anyone suspected that this is a set-up? A Taliban squad behind (or embedded in) the Pakistan Army unit that fires across and into NATO lines, who then retaliate in kind, and you have an instant international incident, while the terrorists are laughing up their sleeves all the way to their next mission planned without hinderance in Pakistan.
Yes the US should leave . And then all the pakistanis in the US should leave .
We should stop all aid money to Pakistan and stop issuing Visas to the Pakis to come here,well said,they are not our allies
Obviously they have made it clear that they can no longer want to be allies...wanting to be strangers is more to their liking according to their military officer.
And you say:
So what is the excuse for not getting out and calling it a day. As it is US can not win in Afghanistan...
Further: The US killed their soldiers, deliberately it would appear. The aid money is a myth...That they want the US out is proof enough of that. It suggests they are getting an unthankful deal as mercenaries fighting the fight the US is untrained or unable or has not the ability to fight successfully. And they want out of this unappreciated alliance.
When they want the US out, and the US wants to continue to stay...this alone suggests who is getting the better deal in this transaction/contract.
Just stop the so called aid, they have refused it anyway, and get out. What is the Problem with that? What is so difficult to understand about: "Get out"
So we have to get in and get out when Saudis wants us to!
So get out of Afghanistan and then get in Iran.
When there are bloody civil wars in Iraq, Saudis and their agents will say: where is Amerika and get in Iraq!
By any chance, just like Saddam if Iran or some Shiites attack Saudi Arabia: oil is very important and now station soldiers in Saudi Arabia!!!
What a joke some of these people have become!