I still don't understand why she's marrying him. Why wouldn't she rather just stay in jail. Now she's just going to get raped repeatedly until she has a mental breakdown and sets herself on fire.

i'm not a mother (yet), and this may not even be the case, but if i was in a prison and my daughter was with me, i'd do anything to get her out.

even so, it's a whole different culture there. it's as if women have no chance to do anything in life, so any little opening they see, they take it, as sad as it is.

He'll probably rape the daughter too.

It's not unusual to find children in jail with their mothers in some Mideastern countries. Usually they have to leave at around 6 years old.

That said, the whole region is full of rapists as it's used as a political and social weapon as well as the "power trip" by the knuckle draggers over there.

I'm guessing the kid is better off in prison with her mother, than out in the Afghan public, WITHOUT her.

I simply cannot believe the pure, unadulterated ignorance of many of the posters here. They treat their women like dirt, so that's a good reason to pack up and go home? Just, you know, eff 'em? Pretty pathetic attitude if you ask me.

So why is there no 'moral outrage' by the 'women's rights' groups in the United States?

Oh, that's right - It might embarrass Obama.

Just curious , are they Muslim?

She says she only has one choice if she wants to bring dignity back to her family and tribe: She must marry the man who forced his way into her home, tied her up, and then raped her.

The logic here is so twisted. If she were my daughter, beating the SOB within inches of his life is how I would bring dignity back to my family.

SI

Backward laws and misery in Afghanistan, women's rights in America and Obama. The connection to President Obama is immediately clear!

American culture sees keeping a child in prison with their mothers as reprehensible, but in many cultures it is considered far worse to separate a child from their mother. In India, it is common to have many children in prison with their mothers because of this belief.

As someone who had a parent go to jail and suffered because of it, I do often wonder who is right.

She was forced to have the baby in jail...(in answer to the first post)

Roy, that was an idiotic comment on your part. This has nothing to do with US politics much less the President. This is tragic on any level, but so are the pit falls of a fanatical religious society. I feel for that poor woman and I fear her daughter will endure the same hardship from that dick of a man.

This woman (and her daughter) have lived in a prison their whole lives. Just look at the photo above. They're tortured within an encampment of faith. Religion, which relegates our very souls to slavery, is a global cancer. One few will affirm, and one fewer still will fight. That's changing of course ... many have awoken and continue to awake. The process of change is slow, but the spread of that change can be quite rapid.

It's a fight we face here too, and not just one relegating to distant cultures. Secular progress demands that we define ourselves as human beings first. When "faith" is finally relegated to the pseudo-virtue that it is and all human beings are defined as equals through our own cause (and not the books we espouse) ... she will be free, and so will we.

Chad: Her reasons for marrying the rapist weren't religious they were secular. The reason she wears the burka are also secular (the majority of practicing muslim women do not wear burkas.)

The secular leader (not the religious leader) Karzai, the elected official, told her that she had to be married to the rapist as a condition of her release.

I know that you want to blame everything wrong with with Afghanistan on religion, but the idea that "All they have to be is secular" is as absurd as it is simplistic.

Any society that hates its women has severe problems.

ROY WILSON-336103

So why is there no 'moral outrage' by the 'women's rights' groups in the United States?

Oh, that's right - It might embarrass Obama.

Congrats! Dumbest thing I have read all day. An afghan woman is raped and you think partisan? Clown.

I am shocked at all these political incorrect statements; we are told , we are taught , we are lectured ; to respect other cultures this is Sharia law, we must be tolerant; so the judges believe that a woman can not become pregnant the first time she has sex, so she is thrown in jail to have a baby, so she must marry a rapists; this is their custom; we must open our arms to these people, we are bringing a couple of hundred thousand of these believers into our country, paying for their relocation, welfare, food stamps, medicaid, housing (just ask the people of Minnesota); I have just one little problem, are we nut's .

Religion is why we have many of the very laws that protect you, chad. There are religions that promote growth for the soul as well. Of course if you believe in the soul then you just about have to believe in something else anyways... If you think string theory is the answer to the universe, well, don't be a hypocrite.

Journal

If you believe that, I'm sad to say that you are severely confused over Islamic tradition.

In Islam, when a woman is raped, the family is considered the victim, not the woman. Rape brings much "shame" upon a woman's family in Islam. If the woman is/was a virgin before the rape, the incident is even compounded further. So much so that there are many cases where the woman's own family will kill her to reserve their honor.

The burka (while not officially contained within the Quran) is a direct result and consequence of its tenants. Men are not meant to establish direct eye-contact with the unmarried female form, especially if not related.

the elected official, told her that she had to be married to the rapist as a condition of her release.

I wonder, could you tell me why such a stipulation would be included upon her release? Have you ever actually read the Quran?

Just like clockwork Roy, you blame Obama.

If there is an article, no matter the topic, you will drag Obama into it.

I had no idea Obama controlled the women's rights groups around the world. Guess we should tell him to ease up a bit, eh?

I'm curious to hear if there are Muslim groups outraged by this travesty and if they are actually speaking out against it.

OMG, they didn't think she could get preggers on her first encounter.......oh these people really need some education.

Chad, then maybe you want to focus on attacking that specific religion, and not religion in general. I could also understand an attack on intelligence in this case as well....

Have you?

Please keep in mind that under the umbrella of "Islam" there are many different faiths. In Mali, Muslim men are the ones who are covered. And the muslims in the US of A also do not tend marry their children to rapist.

This is a regional, social, also political problem. You may not personally like Islam... but Islam still has a right to exist.

And if you do, add your fellow Atheists in with them, because you, too, have a belief system that you spread and you try to inflict on others.

Yes

If you mean the spread that we are all equal constructs of a natural system, equally evolved from the same chemical make-up, related to all living things contained within our terrestrial globe ... then yes. I am spreading much, hopefully to some avail. I fail to see what this has in common with anything you've highlighted?

I have absolutely no context over "atheists" stalking you. "Atheism" is a made-up term, it means very little. An atheist could be a great person or a complete @!$%#.

I personally don't have anything against Islam itself. What I said was an ignorant suggestion, but so is attack on all of religion for what has happened to this woman. It's as you said: "This is a regional, social, also political problem." There are multiple reasons for what happened not just one (which was a point I was showing Chad). I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

Boy they sure are a culture to look up to, right Mr. President and internationalist PC mongers.

That makes about as much sense as giving Jerry Sandusky custody over the kids he was molesting- and now is upset with since they turned him in. What do you think is going to happen to this woman when she "goes back" with the rapist..... hmmm let me think....... sexual torture?? Oh yeah, maybe an honor killing too.

Religion is why we have many of the very laws that protect you, chad.

Wrong. Show me any "law" or civic precept founded within a religion and I will show you one that long predates that particular religion encased within wholly secular parameters. Our religions get their morals and ethics from the primates that invent them ... not the other way around.

Have you?

Yes, I spend a great deal of time studying religions and human faith. I've long been fascinated by the things humans believe ... and why we believe them.

Please keep in mind that under the umbrella of "Islam" there are many different faiths.

Yes, but this has no barring on any of my points. Just like Christianity has branched and divided within further manmade sects, it doesn't change what is housed within the foundational texts.

Ryan, sorry, I was addressing Chad. I don't mind different faiths. I don't agree with them, but a world without religion is a world without freedom of thought. You can't take faith out of the hearts of people. People tried in the Inquisition. Heretics are still around. :P

Continued public shaming would be helpful. It's a sad that (secular) organizations like the EU continue to stifle such exposure. They would rather protect their political and military interests than the interests of poor Afghan women.

I don't mind different faiths. I don't agree with them, but a world without religion is a world without freedom of thought.

I'm really not sure of what better summation could be provided to highlight the cancer I speak of. "A world without religion is a world without freedom of thought".

Really?

Just let that sink in people. Let that percolate around in your heads for a little bit.

Then you make a joke about those killed during the inquisition?

Wow

I would point out the Old Testamant says the same thing, that a raped woman must marry her rapist. (Leviticus, I think.) The idea is since she is now spoiled, no one else will have her and the rapist must become responsible for her welfare.

Nice idea 2500 yrs ago. Abusive nowadays.

I thought we got rid of the Taliban, not seeing much difference.

Chad,

Religion was made to give people a sense of moral compass and control before government came into being to take up the role. They've been clashing over who should have control over the people ever since. This doesn't take away from the fact that extremists are using it as an excuse to justify their causes, but with out any religion at all, humanity would have had a much tougher time reaching any level of civilization.

Good point. But if you don't mind me asking chad, do you claim to "know" that God or gods do not exist?

Being forced to marry your rapist was 'Nice idea 2500 years ago'? Are you insane?

Only a religion could make a claim so assinine and have it accepted.

Tell me again how someone could think the bible was inspired by a devine god?

Well yeah, Chad. You would like everyone to have no religion correct? It's a cancer that should be removed right?

Well you can't remove religion from people. IF an attempt was made, you would trample of peoples freedom of thought. There would HAVE to be some sort of laws put in place "regulating" people's religion, their faith, that are apparently stronger than exist now because right now people can just believe whatever they want to.

And according to you, that is evil and should be stopped. Or to quote you

Religion, which relegates our very souls to slavery, is a global cancer. One few will affirm, and one fewer still will fight.

Sorry, you can't "fight" people's faith, their thoughts. You can't "fight" the idea that there might be a God out there. You'll lose. And if you try to institutionalize that "fight" you'll have an Inquisition.

Evil existed before religion. It'll exist after. Secular is not a cure for Afghanistan's problems.

AG

Great point/observation.

Islam has many scriptures directly taken from Christianity (some almost word-for-word) ... just as Christianity is a plagiarism of earlier jewish works ... just as all are plagiarism of earlier religions of Sun worship. Or in this case, "Son".

The shocking thing is just how easily these connections are shown through a simple research of history. But, people are seldom curios about things they hold sacrosanct, especially if they can be shown as different from their preconceived notions of truth.

Trevor: It was a different world back then. Without a man, a woman had no support. Have you read the Bible? It's a testament to misogyny. Women were chattel. The best a raped woman could hope for would be to find a home in anyone's house, even the rapist's. In all likelihood, she would simply be thrown into the street as a blight upon her family. Having the rapist marry her was probably considered a kindness.

For the record, I'm an atheist. I think any religion is abusive, but you have to look at things in context.

The article mentions the " culture " as the cause of this, but it is the religion , Islam , that is the foundational cause. The culture is based on Islamic views and laws. The apologists for the barbarity of Islam who write these articles don't want to tell the unvarnished truth about what motivates the atrocities involved.

That women's rights groups around the world , and especially in America , stand silent in the face of discrimination , cruelty and profound injustice meted out under Islam to women around the world is a disgrace and an abomination. These groups deserve our unending contempt for their unbounded hypocrisy and refusal to defend the innocent and helpless women they claim to represent.

Ryanb21 - Can you claim that there are no magical elves living in my pear tree? I do have a pear tree so 1/2 claim is true.

By their very definition most gods are self-contradicting.

Roy was right, partially, but the blame should go to both Obama and Bush. As much money as we're throwing around over there, buying political influence, why do women still have no rights in that country? This is bull@!$%#, keep our money over here, and bring our troops home!!!

Good point. But if you don't mind me asking chad, do you claim to "know" that God or gods do not exist?

Absolutely not. Such a position would be as ridiculous as positioning that I knew there was.

If there is/was a first-cause creator we would call god (which there very well could be), such an entity would be so far removed from our terrestrial grasp of reality, it would be quite unquantifiable. But that's my whole point.
I no more claim to know the mind of god then I do my unborn child. I do think one think is for certain however, our manifested religions of violence, slavery, genocide and murder created by men in an attempt to glorify such a creator would be quite trivial to such a being ... if not offensive.

AG - I have read the bible and was a Christian prior to doing so.

I now see the point you are making. I guess it is tough to make such a horrible situation make sense and nomadic goat herders would have a different mindset than us.

JK: Of course she did! Being raped in that culture is the fault of the woman, not the man. To admit it would destroy the rest of her (short) life. Once she realized she was preganant, she had no choice. Don't you think she would have covered it up if she could? I would in her place.

And we think we can export our democratic based culture to countries like Afghanistan...

And I also feel truly sorry for this woman - and, unfortunately, this doesn't appear to be an isolated case.

I'll marry rapist, 'even though I can't look at him'

Now that sounds romantic. Roy did point out one thing. Where are the women's groups? Why do we not hear a peep from them? And why the hell is this women and baby in jail, when we have spent so much money defeating the last group of bad guys. This is the first policy we should have straightened out.

People don't get to pick where they are to be born and the last thing the woman would need is someone to take away the only thing she has--her child.

Roy Wilson and "Dick"---you guys are sick puppies and anything that you post is hackery.

Placing the victim on trial is as old as "law" itself.

Understanding why women in Afghanistan would tolerate this? Their options?

Trevor-1973, I don't claim to KNOW there is a God or gods which is why I asked if Chad claimed to KNOW if there was not. I wanted to be sure I wasn't having the same old ignorant conversation with someone who THINKS they KNOW one way or the other.

Chad I see your point there and I can agree with that. In fact, I see no point in worshiping a god who feels the need to be worshiped all the time. Maybe one that could appreciate a thanks for possibly creating the universe lol. I do believe in an eternal soul. I believe in a god that would be much more hands off than that of Islam or Christianity... almost more of a force if you will. I do however go with the classic concept of this god being one of love, good, or at the very least a promoter of all life (or eternal consciousness, the "soul"). Why? Because IF my consciousness is more than basically just chemical reactions and neurons, then I would bet it is something much more like a "soul." And if there is an actual "awareness" then that makes consciousness so far different from anything else we have still ever observed in the universe which could be taken as a pretty big hint.

People don't get to pick where they are to be born and the last thing the woman would need is someone to take away the only thing she has--her child.

I think this is the best point I've seen made on this thread yet. I would only ask that we all think about this. Christians, Jews, Muslims, and the like. Before you go about your day spouting off "truths" and "beliefs" grounded in your faith ... just think for a second. What if you just happened to have been born in Iran? What if you were born in Tibet? Remember, there are billions of people spread throughout the world. All of them confident within their faith ... all confident within their sacredly held truths.

But are they? Is it "revelation" ... or is it happenstance of geographical birth? I should think the answer is quite clear.

What's the common denominator here?

It's us. We are the human condition that binds our shared, human experience. We are human beings ... not Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc. It's high-time we start acting like it.

I gotta get to work now, it's been fun conversing with you. Especially the ones I completely disagree with. I can assure you, if we sat down with a bottle of wine and some good company, we'd find much more in common than we do apart.

This article is a tale of woe and a testament to Islam. Yes, Islam, the religion of peace and tolerance. That their women are treated in such a manner and forced to wear that garbage in the 21^st century is a disgrace.

Another tragedy is that many of their women are so fearful and brainwashed by this cult they consider their miserable lives to be the norm. From cradle to grave, a Muslim woman’s life is one of repression and servitude, akin to slavery.

I suppose her statement that she would marry her rapist is what passes for romance and courtship in the Islamic world.

Chad,

Rage to your therapist and stop bothering us. The majority of religionists do no harm and many do fine humanitarian deeds. And yes, banning religion IS a deprivation of our fundamental freedoms. Although I respect your point of view, I disagree. Even so! I am not calling non-religionists a cancer nor do I suggest they be eradicated.

"I can assure you, if we sat down with a bottle of wine and some good company, we'd find much more in common than we do apart."

I would not doubt it. Have a good one

Apbass91, all I saw were intelligent responses, even though they may or may not be right at all. It didn't seem much like he was raging anyways. Well, maybe besides his first comment :P

Aquatone,

This is even more of a reason the U.S. needs to leave this country. We are not helping anything as they are just going to keep doing the same. And as cruel as it sounds, they allow themselves to get to this point. If I ever was born in a country where I was treated this way, I would have packed up and moved out long ago. Don't give excuse why theycan't leave because people from that country and other like it have been doing it for sometime. WE don't need to hold their hands to make their life better. At some point people need to be responsible for themselves. I am tired of holding people's hands all over the world as well as people in this country.

As Woody Harrelson said in Zombieland, " Time to nut up or shut up".

Chad, You pride yourself on studying various religions, but it seems you do so with a closed/or one sided mind. if you do not open your mind nothing can get in. all religion is encased in mystery, and some have dark roots and questionable origins, it works for some and not for others, some people simplify(child like belief) while others analyze and complicate beyond belief, while nether of us can say what is true and what is not, they can't all be true, I am inclined to believe in one of them, I don't believe every thing around us just happened! I don't think that the human race is at or near the top. we are stuck in a physical world, what else might be out their, face it we don't know, the one thing that I find amazing is the wide spread belief in all races around the world of a supreme being, the spiritual life and the belief that we all go on. as for Islam that religion to me is a twisted form of Judaism. in short to each their own. believe in what you want, somewhere lays the Truth. about the story I feel sorry for that woman and child.

I wonder, could you tell me why such a stipulation would be included upon her release? Have you ever actually read the Quran?

It's also in the Old Testament, in the laws of Moses. I don't have time to find it, but it's there. (It also says that the man can not divorce the woman in this case, while other verses say that he can divorce his other wives for whatever reason.)

And in the New Testament, Joseph could have had Mary stoned, but was thinking of simply ending the marriage contract, but an angel came to him in a dream and had a talk with him, and so Joseph went ahead and stayed married to Mary, but did not consummate the marriage. (Matt. 1:18-20)

"we are stuck in a physical world, what else might be out their, face it we don't know, the one thing that I find amazing is the wide spread belief in all races around the world of a supreme being, the spiritual life and the belief that we all go on."

Good point buck. I see no point in the stereotypical atheist who tries to put all reasons of why they think there is no god on a "face-value." That in itself is a dogma, something atheists tend to not like. Everyone's a hypocrite I suppose. Not to mention that all this credit given to the "face-value" is, according to atheists (although in my own wording), nothing more than the knowledge based on observations manifested through 5 limited senses of an "advanced monkey" basically stuck on a rock floating through space. That "logic" alone destroys itself... logically.

The countries of the Middle East, specifically Muslim countries, are completely bankrupt in every way. This is what religion out of control looks like.

what some here seem to be missing about that old 'law' of the rapist becoming responsible for the woman he raped is... the time was MUCH different... women back then didn't have ipads where they could look up information.. they didn't have cars to get them around.. they didn't have stoves to heat their water...

women are physically weaker than men... especially back then... if you want to argue that, I'm sure some will want to, you're ignorant of how muscle even functions... if a woman had the same size arm as me.... I'd be stronger... fact. male muscle density is higher than female... thus, they're stronger. so, back when we didn't have cars to drive around.. we had to walk everywhere or ride animals (which women didn't own).. men did a lot of physical work that women didn't, and so they were probably stronger than the average male even now, so they were definitely stronger than women. to prepare food... to set up a place to live.. to acquire the supplies to live.... a woman would have needed a man back then..... so, if a woman was raped.. and the culture caused them to not be desirable to another man, then the woman would probably die without SOME one taking responsibility of her, that could only be the man who raped her... so, she'd be better off. This is all in context to nomadic biblical timed tribes and culture.... you have to learn to think in context to the time, instead of getting your panties in a bunch over how things used to be....

oh yeah, and... to those who are saying how bad religion, in general, is.... if we didn't have religion... we'd be real bad off.. we would all be worse than the worst jerk you could think of... we'd all live a life of how to get what's yours.... and screw anyone else.. we'd also be ruled over by people like batista only, batista wouldn't be nearly as nice of a guy and he'd want more that his share of what you had.... he'd also take your wife.... lol

and don't say he wouldn't.... because you'd have a gun or whatever... he'd have more guns than you.. and he'd have bigger guys than you with more guns than you on top of his own.... and if you said anything to him when he took your wife.. he'd make you wish you hadn't....

so, religion... has been good to us, believe me. we wouldn't all be living how we live now if we ignored it, as a people.

Go ahead and take out all the moral coding that's preached in religion, out of history... see what you come up with.

I've never been cyberstalked, hounded or bullied by a Christian

You really should read history, and look at the behavior of modern day Christians, before stating that lie.

Go ahead and take out all the moral coding that's preached in religion, out of history... see what you come up with.

Actually, most of the "moral coding" you speak of predates religion. Without religion, history would more likely follow the societies similar to ancient Babylon and their Code of Hammurabi. These were laws for society, many of which were copied/stolen and incorporated into the Bible when Christianity rose to power and came to Babylon.

Religion is a double-edged sword. It has helped spread the moral laws which predate it's existence, but it has also been used as justification for the most horrendous acts throughout history. Even today, people preach the "morals" of Christianity, while also using Christianity to justify their vile behavior towards homosexuals, Muslims, and any other group they look down upon.

Religion will bring out both the best and worst in mankind, usually at the same time.

So they don't think you can get pregnant on "the first time??"

What are they in the seventh grade??

Either she marries the man who raped her or get convicted by a court and sentenced to be stoned to death.

Which would you chose ?

Jerk -- what makes you think she doesn't want her daughter? Surely, the child is better off with her mother than, oh dumped out in the street.

It's easy for you to say that you'd love to raise her, but try putting some actions to your words.

Religion was made to give people a sense of moral compass

1. Here we have someone admitting that religion was made up(and in order to control people too!)

2. Those who were not born into religion, and still have no religion, still have a moral compass that is arguably every bit as good as a religious moral compass. How is that?

Apbass91 said:

" The majority of religionists do no harm and many do fine humanitarian deeds."

Seriously?? You DO know that more people have been killed in the name of religion &/or faith than any other single cause in history don t you? Now I understand that there are many peaceful practicioners of different religions out there & it is easily argued that zealotisim is responsible. However, I must point out that by its very nature, all religious belief systems include the tenet that theirs is the sole truth & any other belief systems are false. Therfore a relegious belief system must convert everyone to believe the same. To admit that there may be other truths means that what an individual holds true can be wrong, hence challenging the validity of ones own belief, & cause a person to doubt they're religion. Take any individual & force them to confront something that threatens to destroy the very belief system that their world-view is built upon & how do you think that they will react? This is why faith (unquestioning belief) and devotion is such a core requirement for any religious belief system.

Now in all fairness, I also must point out that a certain amount of what can also be called"faith" is also required for any secular belief system well. In politics, one has faith that ones political views are the right ones & the opposing party's are wrong. So we have elections to try & force one party's viewpoint over anothers Even Science, which is built upon the idea of verifiable & provable observation; is subject to the concept of faith. Look at the arguements about climate change/global warming. There is the generally accepted belief that the climate is changing, but there are differing factions & vehement argument amongst those who believe whether or not humanity is at fault, a contributing factor, or simply negligable. Atheists, belief in UFO's, NWO/conspiracy theories. All belief systems are subject to faith & when that faith is questioned, passionately & often violently defended.

Is there a better answer? Theres the rub. Everyone has to decide for themself. I have my beliefs & they work for me. I'm not trying to impose them on anyone else, I'm just observing.

Atheists, belief in UFO's, NWO/conspiracy theories

That is just a crock. I believe in science and the incredible things that humankind can do---but won't do. I do believe that the peoples of the world are deeply divided by religion, (even more so than by politics). Keep your religion out of our government.

@Chad - Quite philosophical are you not?

Absolutely not. Such a position would be as ridiculous as positioning that I knew there was.

And here I thought most individuals completely forgot the part of history that Socrates tested the human capacity. (Judging by the whole of this thread though, it does not seem as if I am far from the truth).

I enjoyed seeing your points of view. Interesting to say the least.

yeah, as an individual, I'd say that I would have a good moral compass even if I hadn't been raised in religion... but, that's probably pretty ignorant to say about 'the masses'

in how quick things spread throughout a society, the lack of religious influence would most likely have caused much more harmful people than good. the balance in society would have shifted harder toward individual greed.... instead of the common good. I'm not saying it's definite... but very possible.

as for the statement, " most of the "moral coding" you speak of predates religion. Without religion, history would more likely follow the societies similar to ancient Babylon and their Code of Hammurabi. These were laws for society, many of which were copied/stolen and incorporated into the Bible when Christianity rose to power and came to Babylon." religious influence has always been there... before the forms we are familiar with such as, Christianity or Islam... even when people were living in caves, they were drawing things showing a belief in some higher being/s...

without the influence of the concept of right and wrong and god/s watching over our actions, we would be living to provide for those who are lording over us... and trying to make due with what we could manage to keep from those in power.

So they don't think you can get pregnant on "the first time??"

What are they in the seventh grade??

They are tribes people, remote and with little exposure to science or education as we know it. It's easy to forget that the advancements of civilization haven't reached to every corner of the globe until you read something like this, isn't it. In our own country, hard as it is to believe, there are people who actually think the earth is 6,000 years old.

I think really what Karzai is actually doing is keeping her in prison in his own way. He will let her go but only on his terms and it involves making her marry her rapist. How much more degrading can it get? And I agree with the post that he will probably rape the daughter also. He will take what he believes to be his. I'm glad I live in a society where women are not pieces of property.

Religions were molded to fit predetermined agendas. In the land of Islam, the particular plight of this lady is the way it is.

Like I said before this religion is sick. Woman are only used for breeding. Woman have no rights or freedom in this religion. For Obama to say to the Arab countries to support Democracy for who the men only? The woman have no democracy at all, they dont even have freedom or rights. I find that statement by Obama hypocritical hogwash especially for these Muslim countries.

After spending over a trillion dollars on the Afghan war and after sacrificing almost 1800 US soldiers these people are still on the level of cavemen.

Coming to a prison near you if we don't take our country back from the Religious Right.

Max 108; I take that as a direct insult to caveman.

Toasty....... maybe if we keep accepting everyone's traditions and rights as more important than our own, we might see this type of crap here.... but to say "religious right" is pretty ignorant....

the way our people think we have to be PC about everything... and how we should accept everyone into our country... and how we have to respect their views has caused us to basically give those people the keys to take over.... the more we allow here, the more they're going to push their agenda on our society.... we will HAVE no country of our own... (our own in context to a shared people) Islam leaves NO room to share ideology..... it leave NO room for anything other than itself.... and to lie is 2nd nature to them there.. so they will lie and take as much of this country as they can.. and they will do it while we are being all PC about their intent.....

And the US taxpayer funds this government thanks to BUSH.

And the US taxpayer funds this government thanks to BUSH.

You must read the news and interpret it to benefit your train of thought. Last I checked, our current president is a major advocate for having a "Foreign Policy".

Xaziol

Actually yes, I do consider myself philosophical. The real irony however, is that I consider myself to be quite spiritual as well. But to hear some of my detractors on here, you would never know it. I'm actually even engaged as we speak with a fellow Viner over personal email who contacted me to lament further on how misguided I truly am (although my response back to his has yet to be answered.)

Again, It's one of life's great ironies that when people critique religion and faith (or more importantly, simply call it out for what it is), you get an immense response from secular and religious observers alike attacking you for being void of spiritual experience ... for not understanding the mysteries of the universe ... for misunderstanding the transcendental experience of the numinous, and for being spiritually-cold and lacking of imagination.

These were the types of posts I used to spend time replying to, but I've long realized they go nowhere. People simply can't grow past the concept that their particular religion is a small, terrestrial blip on a cosmic scale that's so mind-boggling vast, that to attempt and attribute such a source within scriptural analysis (metaphorical or otherwise) is a concept not worth contemplating.

Quantifying the unquantifiable is simple, intellectual, bankruptcy. God is much more beautiful than that. And the difference between god and religion is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug.

There is soooo much BS on this string. A woman was raped, had her kid in jail and now she has to marry the rapist because she lives with a bunch of camels and dirt in one of the @!$%#tiest places on earth. That's it.

• This isn't about Obama or Bush
• This isn't about believing in the Moon God or whatever else you do or don't believe in
• This isn't about what is happening in our country

Lastly why the hell are any of you even arguing about this? Is it horrible? Yup. Does it have anything to do with the US and our problems? Nope. Believe it or not, we are not the only so called civilized people on this planet.

Once again American citizens, BUTT OUT!

If only she could marry the SOB, then make sure he has a terrible and strangely fatal domestic accident... though the local clergy then would kill her for being a widow.

This is what happens when old-time religion runs the show. Spirituality should be a personal matter, best felt in one's own heart. If you need a harsh set of fake "god-given" rules to scare you away from becoming a murderer, a rapist, a thief, a brute... you are a spineless mess who can't and won't take responsibility for his own actions. If you want to impose the craziest of your rules on the whole world... you're a monster.

JoeJones (there, see I called you that!) I think what Toasty is getting at is the rightists efforts to get a "personhood" amendment passed, which would make it the equivalent of murder to even seek an abortion, or to use birth control. The result would be pregnant victims of rape, similar to this young victim, incarcerated for trying to get rid of their unwanted children... get it?

Once again American citizens, BUTT OUT!

you say this while you are participating. this is a disgusting incident but you are sad if you think that your or anyone else's debate on an online forum will do anything to effect this woman's future. foolish.

They didn’t believe she was raped because they told her that a woman couldn’t get pregnant after her first sexual encounter, so therefore she must have had a consensual sexual relationship with her accuser, they told her.

(Groans) We have a LONG way to go, friends... You know, I find it nearly humorous (but because of its startling actuality, it is instead quite humorless) that these Islamic dominated countries contend that they are every bit as cultured and advanced as any other country on the globe, and then they enter this ridiculous, unscientific nonsense into their judicial system. Islamic countries were, at one time, the jewel of the world-- and they were advanced, especially in mathematics (they invented Algebra, go figure)-- and now... so far has that glimmer faded. No longer a jewel, their cultures have become international pariahs, grim reminders of what degradation can occur when you willingly mire yourself in the sociology of a specific time and culture while the world passes on...

Mac Forrester

...In the land of Islam, the particular plight of this lady is the way it is.

This is a false statement, egregious and loaded. It may reflect your ignorance about Islam and Muslims...or it could be deliberate, mischievous and malicious - even a troll?

Please, what is the basis of your statement? You response would help clarify this ambiguity.

For the moment please know that under Islamic law the punishment for rape is death. In fact under Islamic law President Karzahi would, at the very least, face immediate dismissal, prosecution, and never again be head of state or ever hold a decision making position or any kind of governmental authority, ever.

This atrocity could not have happened under Taliban Rule and left unpunished. Fairness and Justice was their strongest, most attractive, much loved and respected attribute - US propaganda to the contrary notwithstanding.

Also under Islamic law the state has absolutely no authority to separate mother from child. This is considered a major sin against Allah, who made the mother/child bond sacrosanct as practiced in Islamic jurisprudence. Even in a divorce case the mother, grandmother and the father have decending priority - the father pays all costs till the male child is eighteen, the female child till she is married!

Also please acknowledge Afghanistan is under US occupation and President Karazhi is a US installed puppet...that Afghani Freedom Fighters are fighting to remove him or die trying. The US is spending $2Billion per week to continue this occupation, subjugation, conquest and atrocity.

In my assessment US will be defeated and Taliban will be in control again.

"they told her that a woman couldn’t get pregnant after her first sexual encounter"

The judges told this poor woman that, definitely Afghanistan is a society of animals. In most societies the honor would be restored once the rapist hangs off his balls from the top of a tree.

ROY WILSON-336103

So why is there no 'moral outrage' by the 'women's rights' groups in the United States?

Oh, that's right - It might embarrass Obama.

Real classy Roy.

The outrage should be over the fact we are wasting American lives and billion of dollars on that bass ackwards country.

But taking cheap shots at American women is just as helpful.

So to boil it down to basics; In Afghanistan it's considered marriage when a man bops a woman over the head with a club and drags her to his cave by the hair. Why are we fighting a war over there? Why don't we just bomb them into the Stone age? Oh wait....

Hamz, Very interesting post.

Question: is there an Islamic State where the rules you describe are actually followed? I am shocked that rape is punishable by death. Why are the women blamed then? Afghanistan aside(because I do recognize your point about Karzai and the occupation), where do the real Islamic laws preside?

@Hamzeque

This atrocity could not have happened under Taliban Rule and left unpunished. Fairness and Justice was their strongest, most attractive, much loved and respected attribute - US propaganda to the contrary notwithstanding.

Sigh

Yes, we've all seen the justice, respect and love the Taliban projected. We especially cherished the bullet-ridden soccer stadiums for public executions where women (minus trial) were systematically put to death at the hands of fanatical virgins and corrupting warlords.

It's so shocking ... so sad to see well articulate Muslims like yourself defend this stuff. If your generation could only further research your ancestors of The Golden Age of Islam. If you could see your people come from a proud culture that once cherished diversity ... once relished in expanding cultural wisdom from various components of science, literature and math. Early Islam was the focal of early science and progress. The only word mentioned as much as "Allah" in the Koran is "knowledge". Why is this not spread to your younger generations of Muslims? You are not a culture of "one" book ... you were the cradle of civilization!

The focus of the lessor jihad (the physical struggle), over the greater jihad (the inner struggle) is a relatively new phenomenon in your faith. One your earlier ancestors would simply not understand, and one they would flatly reject.

Under Taliban rule, the woman would have been shot in a soccer field. Women are property under their ideals, and therefore have no rights.

Well you can't remove religion from people. IF an attempt was made, you would trample of peoples freedom of thought

Wh...wh...what?!? Religion is the exact opposite of freedom of thought. It's think this way or go to hell, do as we tell you or you're going to be damned forever. Religion wants sheeple to do anything but think for themselves. If you question religion, the only answer they can give is "because a book says so". Religion relies on blind faith, and free thought will blow a hole through blind faith any time.

I just want to know how many of the right wing commentators on this thread support the GOP(American Taliban) and their quest to force victims of rape to bear the spawn of their attackers in the USA!

HamZsquE El Sid 3131*: You may be telling the truth, but I reserve my doubts. First, I base my statement on the content of the article. Secondly, I base my statement on similar incidents in Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia over the last 50 years. I have personal knowledge from native people who were witness to these last three of which I speak. In all three instances the women were raped, then the authorities either killed them or allowed others to, by stoning them to death. In fact, the Iranian victims ( barely 13 years old ) cousin worked for me for several years. I did not personally see either, but I do believe the relatives who told me of these atrocities. While I do not know much about Islam, I know enough to detest it, along with most all other religions, Christianity and Judaism included.

Afghanistan - what a fuc.ed up country!

Muslims - what a fuc.ed up religion!

Its easy to stand back and pass judgement. A majority of these outraged posters, if raised in that country, would fall right in line with such outrageous ideas.

Randi, while your words of wisdom are EXTREMELY insightful, I think I figured that one out when I was 12. If you think that ANY debate in this country accomplishes anything, you are the fool my girl. A debate is nothing more than a few people standing up telling the public that everything is going to be fixed, all along knowing that it will never be done. Yet our citizens keep on voting for these idiots. Then everyone stands around complaining about it, wondering why that person isn't doing their job. It's kind of funny watching it happen again and again and again.

I'm also curious though, if you feel that these debates do absolutely nothing, why are you on here? Just to argue?

chad-1841583, what about the interpretation of the religion? If you ask me it's not religion itself. I think we could agree Islam does not say a woman must merry her rapist. I think religion itself is more or less just a tool for the soul. Just about every religion is based off of quite similar moral values. The confusion comes when people follow what would arguably be the less important details of any religion rather than the very heart of what the religion is founded upon. Or when other factors such as cultural practices get involved. Obviously even if most of the bible came about from divine inspiration, there will still be so much "guessed" or even "injected" by man (IF not all of it). I guess what I'm saying is when reason becomes abandoned for "rules" of any particular religion(s) THEN it becomes a problem. So my question would be what is your view on religion when reason is still kept? Maybe reason is not the best word for this particular convo... how about: What is your view on religion when an open, decently reasonable mind is still kept? (I'll msg this if you're not still reading this thread)

Obviously even if most of the bible came about from divine inspiration, there will still be so much "guessed" or even "injected" by man (IF not all of it).

What would you argue is "divinely" inspired in the Bible? There's actually nothing contained within the book that would hint at a celestial power. You or I could improve upon the Bible in a matter of minutes morally, spiritually, scientifically, etc. That's kind of the whole point. Like all religions, each one bears the common figure prints of its human originators. We find a lot of tribal, violent and archaic things in the Bible because the Bible was written in a tribal, violent and archaic time. Don't get me wrong, there is much beauty in the Bible as well. There is poetry, metaphor, and allegory that I think (if we lost) we would loose much. I'm as moved as the next person when I read a beautiful passage, or hear songs of the gospels. When I walk into a cathedral, the hairs on the back of my neck stand at attention. But again, this says nothing to the authenticity of the dogma, which when you get to the roots of the beliefs, are actually quite barbaric. Unalterable, original sin - human sacrifice - blind devotion and unquestionable faith - no thanks.

So my question would be what is your view on religion when reason is still kept? Maybe reason is not the best word for this particular convo... how about: What is your view on religion when an open, decently reasonable mind is still kept?

Again, as I've just highlighted, a reasonable person can look at much of religion through a reasonable lens. The problem comes through understanding the foundational core of what I've already highlighted. The premise of the religion is based on skewed and flawed perspectives of reality. It doesn't much matter how many moving poems are written, or beautiful works painted ... in a sense, the entire problem with religion comes in its claims to the "answer", before we really even understand the question. And the questions ... that's where the beauty lies.

Oh my godness dont you guys get it yet? The concept is not that difficult. There are some bad muslims, yes. It just so happens that these rotten people rule many islamic and/or arab countries, thus giving them a bad name. If you would just stop for a second and discover what true islam is about, then you'll know that its about abuse or injustice.

I know that my comment will not faze the haters. Whatever. Believe what you want. There will be a day when we all find out the truth.

Muslim Girl,

Us "haters", as we are called, are not judging your religion based upon its fanatics ... we are simply reading your books. Some Muslim scholars of course agree that Mohammed did proclaim some rights for Muslim women. For example he abolished the pre-Islamic Arabian custom of burying alive unwanted female infants. However, he did enshrine women's inequality and inferior status in immutable Quranic law accepted by Muslims as the infallible word of God. And that, you simply can't deny:

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because men spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those among you who fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them." Sura 4:34

"Women shall with justice have rights similar to those exercised against them, although men have a status above women. God is mighty and wise." Sura 2:228

It's fine that you are a woman and you practice Islam ... you have every right. Just please don't go accusing those of us who actually pay attention to what the faith says when we highlight how women are second-class citizens within the Quran.

Chad, I think Isiah had some things to say to you. Try chapter 5:21

John, I've never claimed wisdom beyond a natural means. I've never hinted at a clever spark that exceeds anyone on this thread. And, I've surely never found the wherewithal to believe the answers to all of salvation are housed in a tiny book. Sorry, but that type of "humility" is one I just can't find ... and I hope I never do.

On a side note, I rather love Vegas. Kudos on the pic.

chad-1841583, I wasn't arguing that the bible was or was not divinely inspired. Please understand that I currently do not subscribe to any particular religion. I understand that the bible was most likely thought up by man, as well as entire religions. I'm not trying to somehow change your ways because I feel your "lost" or some other bs. I'm not going to get mad if you offend me. I'll ignore offense for the sake of a good convo. Now that we are past that:

As I said before religion is a tool. You can "build" your soul like a house with it (grow spiritually)... but you can also throw a tool at someone's head and kill them. It's not the tool but the motive behind it. That was the point I was getting at. I would also argue the problem with religion only arises when religion is no longer for the individual. When a culture makes a religion "official" then you have a problem. As for a person praying every night by their bed, well, it could actually hold some value to it (spiritually). Religion should be a terribly personal choice and not have national or even local laws based around it. I think we could agree it's impossible to reasonably accept any entire religion's views. There should not be any reason, one way or the other, that a belief or lack thereof in some type of god should be forced upon others, or be a motive behind violent actions. You do not need a certain building to pray in to talk to God or god(s) (IF there is one and IF it bothers to listen).

"The premise of the religion is based on skewed and flawed perspectives of reality."

This I can say I do disagree with or at least say is incomplete. If I worded this I would say: "The premise of the religion is based on skewed and flawed perspectives of reality when one tries to integrate religion into every aspect of reality." (or most aspects of reality, some aspects, too much aspects, w.e words right).

Whutchu think?

Muslim Girl:

If you would just stop for a second and discover what true islam is about, then you'll know that its about abuse or injustice.

Yes, it is a religion of abuse and injustice. Glad we can agree on that.

It abuses: non-Muslims (Kafirs)-- Jews especially (ironic considering they trace their religious heritage to Abraham: a Jew... silly religion)-- gays, women, atheists, artists, musicians, and well, pretty much anyone who doesn't fit their (very slender) interpretation of a righteous man.

Injustices? Too many to count... read the article. There's just one in a LOOOOONG line of them.

CHAD: There was a world without religion, or at least quite relegated to the far-off sidelines. It was the Communist Soviet Union of Stalin, Communist China under Mao, and Cambodia under Pol Pot. They killed millions of people and that was Far More than any "religious" people have ever killed. Some people that hate all religions say that they are not Atheists, but a-theism maintains that there is no god or gods. An agnostic does not know whether there is a god or not, so, logically, they cannot protest that many people believe in a god or in gods. I have seen the protests of the people who claim they are not atheists, but what they say only confirms that they are, and by their words, militantly so.

All those condemning Islam for this terrible situation: Remember that Muslims are in many lands that have primitive tribal customs, and even governments or judges sometimes back up things that have nothing to do with Islam, as female genital mutilation in northeast Africa, a horrendous custom from pagan societies long ago that even is taken up by Muslims in the area. I think of some Christians who are superstitious and follow astrology or even in the recent past took part in lynchings of Blacks, or fight to prohibit alcohol or marijuana, although there is no biblical backing for those things or are even in contradiction with the bible. I think also of atheists who killed many people because they were believers, even though, as Chad and other non-believers say, people without religion respect everyone as equals.

CHAD: There was a world without religion, or at least quite relegated to the far-off sidelines. It was the Communist Soviet Union of Stalin, Communist China under Mao, and Cambodia under Pol Pot.

George,

Stalin was a sociopathic killer. A brutal thug that murdered political rivals and starved his people. He didn't believe in god.

Between the years 1096-1099 Pope Urban II ordered the slaughter of millions of people, including children, in efforts to procure Belgrade, the Orthodox Church of Constantinople in Yugoslavia as well as Turkey, Syria, Antioch and Palestine. He believed in god.

What's your point? Your argument is a complete fabrication of reality.

I have seen the protests of the people who claim they are not atheists, but what they say only confirms that they are, and by their words, militantly so.

Please go back and highlight a "militant" statement that I've made. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Such a nice peaceful culture. By all means, let's spend more American blood and money helping these tribal people move into the 19th century.

Get out of that area of the world, we never learn a damn thing.

We have failed to learn the lessons of history regarding Afghanistan. They don't want anyone else in their pesthole of country -- leave them to it!

In the 19th century, the British Empire announced they were sending a trade delegation/embassy to Kabul and when told 'no, we don't want you here,' they sent them -- with troops -- anyway. How dare these dirty savages tell us 'no!' We're the British Empire. They made the mistake of assuming the Emir of Kabul actually ruled the country, not just Kabul. They were slaughtered to the last man, goat, dog, chicken, anything alive in the compound. Battle of Khyber Pass? The hill tribesman rode down on them and slaughtered everyone there too.

In the 20th century, these same hill tribes kicked the Soviet Union's arse when they tried to invade.

Now, in the 21st, they're using the weapons we gave them -- to use against the Soviets -- against American troops.

It's past time to get out of there and leave them to their own 7th-8th century customs and beliefs. They don't want to join the 21st century. It's just costing us money we don't have and lives we can't afford.

In that part of the world lying is second nature, we will never know the truth maybe they were having an affair, and its their way of covering it up (hide the shame). we need to remove ourselves from that part of the world, we can't possibly understand it, we can't change it. we don't have a complete story, there may be more to this. we are all making assumptions.

Religion of Peace, more like Religion of POOn. I hpe that guy get's strung up by his sack.

And another thing, who actually still belives that old wives tale that a woman cant get pregnant after her first sexual encounter? Once a woman reaches puberty she CAN get pregnant.

I don't think they care about what happens to a woman once she hits puberty; nor would they care about the scientific aspect of being able to get pregnant. I think they can make their people believe those things, so they have no reason to change that statement about the woman being able to get pregnant the first time

I would be willing to volunteer for a study to see if women can get pregnant their first time. Can I get the government to fund it?

I'm with you IDunnoBro, we have no business over there and have been played by all sides. You American women might want to study this story and then give your man a good hug!

you're lucky you werent born there. if you were, you'd want a lending hand. you're very ungrateful when you should be grateful.

Do they follow Sharia Law?

Aren't we doing exactly that here in the good ol' U.S.A....putting the guy with a Sig Sauer 9mm defending his home in jail when he shoots and injurs the robber? The robber sues the homeowner and wins...

The world is definitely "EFFED UP".

I absolutely agree. Billions of taxpayer dollars have been wasted fighting with this country and Iraq and pretty much nothing has changed. These countries will never accept Americas model of democracy that President Bush was trying to force feed them. You can't help people who refuse to save themselves from tyrants. Their so immersed in living with a backward ridiculous religon and the laws it has. There was absolutely no good reason for the thousands of Americans killed, physically maimed and spirtiually destroyed in this conflict. Women in America did'nt get the right to vote until 1918 and were often abused by their spouses and even families but no where near the abuse in this country. American women stood up and demanded change in this country. We fought a war with the British to have freedom in this country. The Afgahn and Iraqi people won't do the same because they don't value the same freedoms and rights we do. Can you imagine a woman jailed for two years and being forced to give birth to a child in i'm sure filthy conditons? This is what this country thinks is the solution? Why should we continue to fight for democracy and freedom for them spend our money buliding schools, rebuilding homes, assisting in medical care etc..? We need to start helping our women, children and families living in poverty in our own country instead.

Big D...What source is that story from?

I doubt it occurred...It is another story about how the crime is so bad here in America...And criminals have it so easy...I call BS!

As a former felon I can tell you the justice system is not just, nor is it any easy ride like you assume. I did 14 years of a 15 year sentence inside a violent place where the strong survive, there are no rehabilitation programs, they fed us on $1.88 a day, and even had a huge scandal because they were buying crab bait and feeding it to us. I know you like to think there is cable, and we all sit around laughing at the taxpayers for providing the"best medical care"...Well that is all BS...Go on a tour sometime...I have had no medical for over 16 years now...No dental because the answer you get is "we only fix teeth in an emergency"...If asked ,and I did...They say oh, there is never a dental emergency because we actually just pull the tooth...No reason to fix it right?

Tell me again about the easy on crime system. We deride China for its slave labor...I worked in a prison furnature factory that used our labor for a private company that raked in over 6 million dollars a year. They paid me about $1000 dollars a year. So go sell your tickets to someone who does not know the truth.

One last thing...They voted out rehabilitation in my state 1998 and so now you have a massive influx of prison gangs rising because they are without any education inside. That is a recipe for a future crime wave. Right now the crime rate is down to a historic low...Do some research and you will see. The only reason it seems worse is because the 24 hour news cycle now reports every story as if crime is rampant everywhere...When was the last time you were attacked? Do you feel safe on the streets of America? I do...But then again...I ain't no pussy.

For a good book on the subject...Assuming you read..Not many people read actual books anymore...Read "The celling of America". It is a book about the prison industrial complex.

Peace

JohnnyB, Thats what Ceasar said about the Huns, So Rome left and the Huns followed. they missed them.

hairfarmer, the rare cases where people are arrested and prosecuted, and/or successfully sued, are few and far between and are generally due to the "victims" over reacting in use of extreme violence when there is no threat to themselves or others. A few cases I'm aware of (I've been a cop for 32 years) is a man guarding his warehouse against burglaries who shot and killed a burglar who was fleeing after being scared away upon learning someone was in the warehouse. Burglary is a non-violent property crime, the suspect was running away and was killed, therefore the warehouse owner committed murder. Another was recent, a man came home to see burglars running from his house, he jumped in his car in an attempt to find them, and killed an alleged suspect who was in fact some poor kid walking home from his girlfriend's house who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. A case in another state was where a homeowner booby-trapped a door so when a burglar broke in a shotgun discharged, taking the burglar's legs off. "Victims" using deadly violence when there is no threat to them, which resulted in their arrests.

Of course the news, TV and movies constantly refer to houses being robbed as opposed to burgled, which doesn't help as most citizens are totally ignorant of the difference. A robbery is when a person or persons are forced to give their possessions to another person/persons under fear of force or injury (like I'm gonna whack you with this baseball bat or shoot you with this gun if you don't comply) where a burglary is a non-violent crime where someone breaks into another's car or home and removes property. And when I did a stint working medical officer in the jail I learned that you are correct about the medical/dental needs of inmates...you have your choice of a temporary filling or a tooth extraction and medical care is generally only given to keep the inmate from falling over dead. Of course in California its a bit different, as they perform sex changes on trans-gender inmates, but these cases are extreme and rare.

I have travelled fairly extensively in my life and still believe we're lucky to live in this country, and it makes no sense to me for the US to have military bases all over the world when we have technology to strike anywhere in a very short amount of time. Our "war on terror", brought to you by both major political parties, is illogical when we don't even control our own southern border. We could close our military bases and patrol our own ports and borders to prevent another terrorist attack on US soil. After all, most attacks have been on our bases and embassies abroad.

Peace and good things to you.

It's definitely none of our business being there, and we should get all the troops out immediately.

Im thinking it would have been much easier to just obey the law!

WhoWhat...

Thank you for your intelligent response. I actually have a paralegal degree...I have seen cases that were considered murder when the home owner took a life inside a dwelling. One was a man that was being attacked in his own house with a hammer...He fired a single shot shotgun at the perp...The man went down but was still struggling to fight...The home owner then reloaded and fired one more shot. The jury found him guilty of murder and he was sentenced to life. The DA agreed that the first shot was self defense, but the second shot and the act of reloading constituted premeditation, and therefore murder. I know the strange cases...But the general public who have never seen the system up close, as in my case...And yours too...They just repeat things they hear about the system. They assume it is a cake walk full of happiness because no one has to work...You get a bed...A TV...Weights...Etc...I encourage everyone to tour a facility...Go ask a convict about the daily grind prison is on the soul. It is a terrible place and I always joke with people that I had more time in the joint than I did in school...So I got my ass to class as soon as I paroled to fix that...LOL I now have 16 years of school, and I try to do positive things with my life.

If one really wants to change...You must decide for yourself. But education is the key.

There was a smart man who worked in a gang outreach program...He recently died, but his favorite saying was...Stay in class...And stay out of the back of cops cars...LOL Good advice.

Peace to you too friend.

naaa...serve him with a bullet to head...

I don't think annulments are allowable in Afghanistan plus if she marries the guy to restore her family's dignity, her words not mine, a divorce would be just as undignified.

The attacks on religion in general by various commentators are preposterous. The actions described in this article are actions motivated by only one religion --Islam. If Afghanistan was a Hindu or Christian or Buddhist or Jewish or atheistic country these atrocities would not be perpetrated against women. Islam is the sole author of this form of profound discrimination against women. The biggest disaster to befall women in the history of human existence was the development of Islam. Under it women are third class citizens , essentially slaves , with less rights than a goat. Beware those who chose to turn a blind eye to the culpability of Islam and seize the opportunity to unjustly smear all religions. They are charlatans who seek to mislead the gullible and distract them from a realization of the true horror abiding in Islam.

I think adding annulments would just screw the country up worse than it is anyway. Another reason for a woman to be put in prison with her children

There is nothing "fine" about any of this. Nobody is worried about the girl. I don't understand how a "families honor" is sullied by the actions of a strange man who breaks into their home and rapes their daughter. It seems to me the "honor' was sullied by HIM. Why in the world would a mother and a father turn on their own child like that? It seems to me they have no "honor" to lose in the first place. What a horrible society and culture. To think, they think WE are savages. She should do a "Lorena Bobbitt" on him. In fact, every woman in that sewer should do the same and take the other "parts" as well. Maybe then, unable to rape or reproduce they would just die out naturally.

amen

Eng...Even if he raped her multiple times she does not deserve to be in prison. That could well be the case here. She is smart enough to know that admitting to repeated rapes would put her in jeopardy as well as her family. Yes, women can and do get pregnant the first time. I agree, the court is so out to lunch that they are not deserving of their positions. If their upper class is that stupid, how ignorant and oppressed to they insist on keeping their citizenry?

Our soldiers are fighting for us because they are ordered to and that's what they do. There is no reason needed ...Just orders...They follow the commanders orders.

We're fighting to gain their oil

rkb5555 -

Oh, right. The vast Afghan oil fields will soon be ours.

...or, it could be that we are there because Afghanistan's location is of strategic importance for military operations in that region.

What purpose will military locations for the US serve strategically ?

Google PNAC and you will see the plan. It is a strategic area.

Nothing happens by happenstance when it comes to these things. Geo-politics is a hard thing to grasp, but interesting if you study what is the bigger picture.

we are "containing" our cold war style adversary , Persia, hopefully limiting their nuke capability.

That makes no sense. We are not in the mist of a cold war. In fact we are beginning to pull out of the middle east. Military is scaling back. Agreements globally are being made to cut back on nuke production. This is about oil and America having a controlling foothold in a region with with a rich oil history. It is ultimately about money and all ways will be.

sorry , chernobyl taught us the nuke power plant is more dangerous than a nuke warhead. but pure greed is a nice belief , if you need it.

RCovit -

Spoken with the authority of ignorance. The Chernobyl disaster taught us no such thing.

A nuclear power plant melt-down, and a nuclear warhead's destructive yield are difficult to accurately compare against each other.

That's because different things are happening, but in almost every measurable way, a nuclear warhead is going to do far more damage than an out-of-control nuclear core from a power plant.

really? you can live in hiroshima or nagasaki ,try going to visit chernobyl. the area is contaminated for the next 50,000 years , we cant live there. the bomb is temporary and the meltdown is forever.

Jeff-1857773 -

Nice sentiment, but it isn't very practical. Not everyone has either the means, or the freedom to leave a bad situation.

These PEOPLE are NOT sub-human. They are not fundamentally different from your or I. By dehumanizing them you make it easier to mentally and emotionally distance them from yourself. Too bad.

We have the exact same capacity for cruelty that they do. They have the exact same capacity for kindness that we do. Stop marginalizing people that you have a problem with. It accomplishes nothing other than demonstrating your own ignorance and intolerance.

Ignorance, intolerance, for what, stupid cultures? Zen, you are right I'm intolerant but not ignorant at all to the backwardness of their society. Not everyone in Afghanistan is sub-human sure, but one must ask themselves what kind of society rewards those who inflict such a heinous act upon other human beings? It surely is not a just and intelligent one. The Afghan people have been around just as long as anyone else on this planet, if they have the same capacity for kindness that we do surely thousands of years of the existence of their civilization would have bore this out.

Zen - If they have the same capacity for kindness or cruelty that we do and yet they choose the latter, is it we that marginalized them or did they do it to themselves with their own decisions? Is it not ignorant and foolish to embrace someone for behaving cruelly rather than acting with compassion? Do you correct or compliment the child that seeks to cause pain to others for their own amusement and self aggrandizement?

They are fundamentally different from me. What they forced on this woman is evil from start to finish. She was raped, then jailed for being raped, forced to have her child in prison, then sentenced to a 600% longer jail term for appealing her case, and as a final indignation offered release from prison only if she marries the man who raped her. I wouldn't want to put any woman through such an ordeal. So the folks that did this to her are not fundamentally the same as me.

No, we shouldn't "tolerate" things that are so fundamentally wrong.

Well said Zen-Hydra. All because an individual is a sad waste of good human DNA (potential) doesnt mean his society, religion or culture is. Every culture, every religion, every country on this planet has their own examples of sad waste of good human DNA (potential). That is why everywhere on earth that you find a society, large or small, they have rules, laws and customs to control those within their group from doing "nasty things to eachother" and ensure harmony amongst the group.

Although most here condemn what is happening in Afghanastan with this woman, it merely re-affirms to me that the mid-east is merely a few hundred years behind europe in how it treats it's women.

Everyone commenting here today, if they go back on their family tree, will find that merely 3 to 4 generations ago, their lineage had members who felt and dealt with the rape of a woman the same way. Europe may have been a tad advanced with allowing the woman a chance to prove her claim - all she needed was 3 witnesses to the entire rape to be believed by her male elders. And lets now forget that best seller every child is required to read about the American forefathers and their culture they took to the new world from Europe, " The Scarlet Letter".

American women we the first to demand and fight for women's equal rights (which was never included in that declaration of independence nor the US Constitution) ... and we got them (for the most part). Onced we began that fight, it caught on in europe and has spread ever since. Although women everywhere havent succeeded in obtaining their inalienable rights as human beings, at least 1/2 have and the rest know they are being denied theirs. Women didnt even know they had rights till American women showed the world EVERYONE, including women, have rights.

What has happened with this woman, according to our current culture and society, is wrong .... and it should be recognized as such. However, it is merely 200 to 400 years (depending on the european country) behind where Europe was culturally. Although Asia has made some great strides in women's rights, the mideast isnt even a century behind them and may very well be ahead in women's rights compared to most of Africa.

The way to changing ideas in cultures isnt by war, nor education (which can be subjected to the "moral codes"), but by example from other cultures which can change the minds of individuals who are willing to stand for basic, inalienable rights of those they love - their women (mothers, sisters, wives cousins and daughters). Once those with a voice begin to recognize what is now seen as wrong by ~1/2 of the world, they can decide to fight to give a voice to their women.

A voice is the most important step ... because then women elsewhere must do what American and European and women of other cultures did/ are doing ... fight for their own rights. To do so, they first need that recognized voice which can only come from those already in power, however they got there.

Recycled Hope --- How naive. The women must fight for their rights, you say. You know what women will get in Islam if they resist the discriminatory force of men? They will get dead. Try reading the Koran, Hadith and Sira of Muhammad to discover the place of women in the scheme of Allah. According to Islam, Muhammad once made a trip to Hell to check things out. There he reported mostly women. Is that any clue to you as to how women are viewed by this 1400 old belief system?

That's not being naive. Everyone has to fight for their rights. Change is almost always met with resistance.

"At every crossroads on the path that leads to the future, tradition has placed 10,000 men to guard the past." - Maurice Maeterlinck

Gary- Zen and Recycled Hope write some of the most intelligent, poignant posts on this forum, and you call them naive???

Did you not understand or comprehend what they were even writing about?

It's obvious you completely missed the entire point. Either go back, re-read the posts again, and apologize to Zen and RH for your rudeness, or stay off this forum altogether.

Personally, I'm sick an tired of reading stupid posts from the "nuke 'em all" crowd, or those who think it's okay to demonize an entire population by the actions of a few. Idiocy abounds, while rational thought is denigrated. Thanks, Gary, for reconfirming why I hardly bother with this forum anymore.

@ Gary...

Led Zeplin also said the soul of a woman was created below...Should we kill them too?

Hairfarmer ------- Led Zeplin followers aren't murdering and enslaving women are they?

Thank you, Zen and Hope. A little intelligence helps a lot.

I wish everyone would stop blaming Islam or the Quran for this. The Christian bible is one of the sickest, most violent & masochistic books around, yet you're not judging all Christians by it, are you? Do you blame the bad behavior of non-Muslims on their religious tome? The religion isn't to blame - the misinterpretation is.

Aha!!! Touche'

Well played Sir...Well played...

Although...It is still kind of a poor choice of lyrics...And they are not from America....But they do still rock...

Its a toss up...

;)

Who's problem would be solved by that? The imprisoned rape victim? The child produced by that rape? The society that already blames the victims of this tragic situation? Killing the rapist solves nothing.

We should be encouraging these people to become more enlightened, not less. There is no lack of violence there already, we don't need to encourage more. Revenge killing in the name of justice, is an example of why this region is so unstable already.

These people are better served by the rule of law, and the adoption of basic human rights.

Zen-Hydra

Who's problem would be solved by that? The imprisoned rape victim? The child produced by that rape? The society that already blames the victims of this tragic situation? Killing the rapist solves nothing.

yes it does - thats a sure way to ensure he doesnt do it again.

"Killing the rapist solves nothing."

Sorry I'll have to agree with mike on this one. Why let this situation happen again? Why let the guy who wants to get some no matter what he does to others live?

While I'd like to see the rapist killed, it is highly likely that (at least) the two female cousins are illiterate, burdened now with somehow trying to feed small children - when it is VERY unlikely they could feed themselves. No guarantee their immediate families will take them back in after all this "shame" business.

Killing the male would leave the cousins destitute. Add in to this mess that the male is highly likely related to them also. That's how they roll in backwater countries, especially arab and 'stans.

Maybe they could just neuter him.

Zen-Hydra --- If the law required execution for this crime then it would be following the rule of law to impose it. You don't support the rule of law being applied because you oppose execution where it is the rule of law. And, by the way, if you oppose execution as " revenge " killing in the name of justice, why do you support "revenge " imprisonment in the name of justice. Wouldn't any restriction on the despicable criminal be simply "revenge " and therefore in your view wrong? Please say you're not so inhumane as to support "revenge " imprisonment of a rapist?

would make me (and her) feel better.

Women are property in Afghanistan, not people. The government is basically saying that rape is perfectly acceptable and men can do whatever they want to the female sex.

Women should start responding in kind. Problem is they have learned to be victimized and internalized it. Yes, she should marry this man and when he least expects it remove the instrument he values most.

she better leave the country if she does that

Our military is still there. Go get her family. Go to the shelter and get her and her child. Drive them to the nearest airport and bring them to a shelter in America so that they can seek asylum. Will it piss off the afghanis? Yuuuup! Will we deny it ever happened? Probably. There are cases that we can intervene in a good way and this happens to be one of them.

I had been thinking the same thing. Why don't the women there all team together in one mass revolt and go after the sick pigs who treat them so horribly?

Yeah, I bet that would go over well. That region of the world is full of theocracies disguised as democracies. Women are chattle in the eyes of their society, and thus this woman is forced to make a devil's choice. This is what state-endorsed religion brings to the table.

Lorena Bobbitt...where is she now...we could send her over to train those women...

I wish that were possible achick, but these women have been brought up to be submissive to men and aren't aloud to think on their own. I doubt many of them would even fathom the thought to come together and go after these men (rapists)

I count myself so very lucky to be born in the USA where I am an equal and can think for myself.

that a why women suffrage movement should be realize by people in afghanistan. How? with usa money. fight on all front, take money away from military use since job on war front seems llike a nightmare with promises to come home got renege, etc. pssst. beat up congress, divery money from military use, scare some generals, etc..... -- or women suffrage exists in afghanistan with some usa money assistance --

I think both women should ensure there is a liberal dose of rat poison in his food.

Well, actually, they do that with fair regularity. They'd no doubt do it more often except for the fact that women have a very difficult time caring for themselves in that society. And since they will only inherit a small percentage of his money, hubby has to be fairly well-off financially before they can send him to his just reward.

So, just out of curiosity, is Islam a religion that allows multiple wives?

Yes. Islam allows 4 wives, although in theory each wife has to agree.

It's not as awful as it sounds to us. Of course sometimes it IS awful, but often the arrangement is more than acceptable to the wives.

Deep emotional relationships tend to be with people of your own gender in that society. The wives are often best friends, as close as sisters. Also, keeping house is hard labor, and often includes caring for elderly parents as well as children. It helps if the work is shared.

Not to mention the conjugal duties in a society where "no" is not an option except for a few days each month.

Also there are strict rules regarding how the wives are to be treated. For example, if one insists, she can live apart from the others and the man has to provide for her an equal standard of living. He is not allowed to show preference among them.

It's hard for us to relate to it, but it's normal for them. Some progressive Muslim countries don't allow multiple wives. In some countries, women would be in dire trouble if it weren't for polygamy.

seriouslynow --------------- What? Forcing women to accept the fact that their husband can have 4 wives but limiting women to 1 husband is " not as awful as it sounds to us." It is an abomination! In Islamic societies, a man can divorce his wife by simply saying he divorces her, but the woman has no such right. In Islamic societies, a women can be forced to marry against her will at a very young age. Women in these societies are little more than slaves, less valuable than a goat and with less rights.

Your defense of the abuse of women and denial of their human right to equal treatment is shocking. Do you defend human sacrifice of women in societies where that occurred? After all, it wasn't as " awful as it sounds to us ", was it? And it was normal for them, right?

In theory polygamy was supposed to be a fix to ancient problems. This is why women are supposed to be treated nicely by the guy they're sharing. But are they actually treated well? Even if they are on average, would they be treated well by a rapist?

Highly doubtful. Not to metion the inequality (polygamy doesn't go both ways) that arises. The Islamic brand of polygamy has no place in modern societies, but then again, Afghanistan isn't exactly modern.

Most of those countries do not have rape as a crime. How can you rape something you own!

gary --

What is it with people like you? Does it really never occur to you that other cultures have a right to exist -- that the American way isn't the only way?

Much of the rest of the world does not share your values, and in fact, are as disgusted and appalled by American values as you are by theirs.

You need to get out more. Or at least read a little.

At no time have I ever defended the abuse of women. I have explained facets of a culture I am familiar with. You want to paint an entire people as evil because they have a different norm and a different set of beliefs, and that's just not the case. It's people who think like you that support unprovoked wars because they view the "enemy" as less than human since they have customs that are different from yours.

seriouslynow -------- People that do the following are doing evil : throw acid on little girls to keep them from getting an education , force girls or women or anyone into marriages against their will , strap bombs on themselves and murder innocent human beings ,cut off the noses of women who disobey them , tolerate and engage in honor murders of women whose behavior they disapprove of, allow women to be raped with impunity for the rapist , etc.

All of the forgoing are engaged in by Islamic societies in the name of their religion today in the 21st century, not in some distant time hundreds of years ago. To say you don't defend the abuse of women but then call this behavior "culture" and defend the right of the males to therefore engage in it is to talk out of both sides of your mouth. No matter what label you apply the fundamental reality is it is evil and wrong. The Nazis might as well have said in 1941 , well we murder Jews, it is just part of our culture. Then your view would lead to the conclusion, that's OK because they just " have customs that are different from [ours]." It is a bankrupt and merit-less position that if widely adopted will lead us back into the short , nasty and brutish lives lived centuries ago.

Sounds excellent to me, but then they'd be at the mercy of other men to decide their fates.

I think there is no way out for these women

gary --

that's OK because they just " have customs that are different from [ours]." It is a bankrupt and merit-less position that if widely adopted will lead us back into the short , nasty and brutish lives lived centuries ago.

Did I say any of the things you refer to are okay? Of course not. They are abominations, horrors, nightmares that should be met with the most horrendous punishment. There are literally no words strong enough for the actions you refer to.

I was answering a person's question about the practice of polygamy in Islam. It's hard for Americans to relate to, but it's not usually an act of oppression or cruelty in their culture. I know, because I've lived in their culture. LIVED in it, not read about it, not published a knee-jerk reaction based on American ideals. I've had friends and neighbors who were in Islamic polygamist marriages while living in an Islamic country. So I think I know a little more than most Americans about the subject, and felt I could comment.

I pointed out that there are laws regarding the situation and that a man can't just drag home another wife, but that the present wife or wives have to agree to the marriage. I mentioned that the women are often very close emotionally, like best friends or sisters.

At no time did I say it's okay for men to throw acid on anyone, let alone little girls. Or cut off a woman's nose, or any of the sick, horrific crap you seem to want to accuse me of saying.

The problem is you want to paint with too wide of a brush. You do to Muslims exactly what you just did to me. You don't approve of some aspect of their culture, so you equate it with every horrible thing anyone has ever done who is associated in any way with that culture.

By your standards, I accuse Americans of using their sons as sex objects, of raping them repeatedly until they are grown. The poor children have no lives at all, they are not even treated as human beings, they exist only to serve the perverted sexual desires of American men.

What's wrong? That doesn't sound right to you? You say all Americans aren't like that, only a few?

Well that just won't cut it. If some do it, all are guilty.

seriouslynow -------------- You say " ... there are laws regarding the situation and that a man can't just drag home another wife, but the present wife or wives have to agree to the marriage." First of all , not true. No woman has a veto over the man and his right granted by Muhammad in the Koran to take up to 4 wives. Second, in this case, the thug raped the women and now the Islamic system orders her to marry him in order to be released from jail! Kind of like dragging her home now isn't it? Their system is an abomination , a complete denial of the basic human right to freely select you mate or to chose to remain single. You can do better than to defend such a primitive , revolting system.

As to your comment regarding boys being abused in America it is completely inapposite and unworthy of further comment. The perpetrators you describe are not living out any faith in committing their despicable acts but the atrocities in Afghanistan are committed in the name of Islam and the instructions provided in the Koran, Hadith and Sira. These men are motivated by and complying with the words and deeds of their Prophet.

Jeff-626432Maybe Bush was right to pull our troops out of there after all, bin Laden or not. Maybe Obama needs to reconsider his stand with the Afghan people and stop trying to influence thousands of years of this type of treatment.

Uh... Bush didnt pull out troops out. Know how I know? BECAUSE THEY ARE STILL THERE.

Where did you get the idea that Bush pulled our troops out of there ? Do you read the news much ?

MM

When he jumped on the blame President Obama for everything wagon.

Evolution stopped when it reach Afghan. It said these people are useless and moved on. Now mind you, some of them where worth the effort to advance to civilized humans and those folks left Afghan a long time ago.

We are there fighting these people so that they cannot come here and turn our people and country into what their's is.

America may have it's own problems JADE, but under no circumstances have we descended to a depth to convert this society to religious persecution like theirs in the extreme. Yes, we here practice some coveted actions ourselves and will be judged severely by those actions but we still say in the end it's Gods decision to judge us.

They aren't coming here to fight us as an army. Only in small terrorist groups. They'd get nuked before a full scale invasion happened here. The country we have to worry about getting invaded by is Mexico and other south American countries. We already are in a passive way but if Mexico ever declared war with us it would be very bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And she'll just pack up and leave .... how?

John Haskins, that is such an unfair statement and plays right into the ideas and culture over there that is so messed up.

This woman is likely uneducated, knows very little, and has a daughter that she wants to raise and protect. As soon as the girl is old enough she will be taken away while the woman rots in prison. If this woman marries her rapist she will have a chance to keep her daughter.

It is also extremely difficult to escape in a society where nobody is willing or even able to stick their necks out to help you escape. If you want to help her, go over there and get her, that's probably the only way.

1st of all, she may have no choice in what she can do. Woman in those countries have no rights. A woman is the property of her father and then of her husband, and they have the right to do whatever they want with or to her. 2nd she most likely has no funds to come to the usa, no passport etc.. 3rd those people are Muslims, not Christains, they do not have the same beliefs as Christins do, nor do they believe in the Christian God.

mb...That further strengthen my belief that if our mission is to protect and advance human rights to all Afghans, then it should be our mission to remove these people such as this woman to a place that will allow her to be free and most of all a woman of her own choice. But remember this, it is her who has accepted her way of life and if she and all the other females their do not rise up and defend themselves against the disrespect presented to them by the male population their, there is absolutely nothing no one can do to save them except kidnap each of them by force and make them leave that hell hole, but it is still up to those women who want change to accept change and we here in America need to understand we are not the change makers of the world, as we have a lot of homework to do here.

Jade..Your analogy seems to spell of ultimate doom for the whole female population there. Maybe we need to view our mission a little differently then. If what you say is true about the masturation and Muslim belief, then why are we their promoting human rights when if what you have presented to us all, seems completely useless an in vain. First you must ask yourself, DO THEY WANT TO BE CHANGED and if so, IF THEY DO ACCEPT UNIVERSAL CHANGE, will they accept it and be at peace with it? Mankind keeps putting titles upon themselves that God never ordained in the first place and I still think the only fault to our God is he gave mankind choice, cause most of us have totally screwed that gift completely up.

There is no way she'll ever be allowed to leave or get enough money to try and flee the country with her child. She even gets caught planningit she'll likely be put back in prison or executed. You have no idea what its' like there for women and people without power. Getting caught planning revolution would be prison or death and the people won't do it.

If this sort of repressive regime continues, eventually, it will change - it will take generations, and the old ones to die off. All the smart Afghanis, of means, left already - to France or the US. So doubtful they will rise from the stone age any time soon.

Wow! Seven replies since I formulated my reply. Oh well. Here it is.

John,

Do you ever experience any lucid perceptions in that gelatinous mass of little grey cells contained within your brain-housing-group?

I hope you are trolling by making fun of two religions and are not serious with your statements. If you are serious then, you're trying to use Christian beliefs to combat or argue against Islamic beliefs, both of which are antiquated superstitions from ancient periods in human development and contrast each other in so many different ways!

You're also trying to equate freedoms people in the West (no dictators, no plutocracies, no theocracies (but the Christian Talibans in the U.S. are working hard to create one)) enjoy, daily, with the severe religious limitations placed on all the citizenry of Afghanistan and beyond, especially where women are concerned. Women under Islam have no real control over their lives and they are, certainly, not allowed to travel wherever or whenever they want; men, under the dictates of religion, control them like livestock.

I would be amused if I could witness you (after your sex had been changed) be dropped into the middle of an Islamic country, especially Afghanistan, and be forced to survive in that cesspool. After you experienced the harshness to which women are subjected to under a strict, horrible religion and have acquired the true nature in which Gulnaz finds herself, then I would want your memory erased and replaced with a lifetime of indoctrination of a religion as fact, void of any science or any other enlightenment, in this case Islam, and have no other knowledge outside of your village or tribe--total ignorance of the world, our solar system, and the cosmos. Remember, you (as a woman) have not been allowed to be educated, you have no access to television, radio, nor the Internet (reading, writing, and computer knowledge would be required for use of the Internet, of course.) You are trapped within in your own mind suspecting that there are better conditions outside of your bleak environment but you are trapped, physically and mentally. I find it remarkable that Gulnaz has had the gumption to resist as much as she has, thus far, and consider her a very brave woman.

Gulnaz's situation should make every decent human being on our planet boil with rage at the treatment of this woman and every other woman under similar circumstances. The men, too, are kept ignorant by religion and, from the outside looking in, we easily see their plight and understand why they act the way they do. Basically, religion sucks.

I could go on but, you get my point. I end here. Well, not quite. I have to add:

"Yea" or "Yeah" - Which did you mean? If I were using "yea", I'd follow it up immediately, with an exclamation point and begin a new sentence, "Yea! Go ahead ..." If I am inferring an acknowledgement as in "yes" then, I'd type it this way, "Yeah, go ahead ..."

"whether" vice "weather" - You're not discussing the state of the atmosphere with respect to wind, temperature, cloudiness, moisture, pressure, etc.

"damn" vice "dam" - No water involved.

"phrase" vice "phase" - You should be able to see the difference.

"archangel" vice "Arch angel" - I wonder what an arch of angels, or more to the point an arch of one angel, looks like.

Your references to religion are laughable.

Now I'll stop.

Entry #19.8

4th paragraph, 2nd sentence, 5th line (as presented in my browser) should read:

"... of a religion as fact, in this case Islam, void of any science or any other enlightenment, and ..."

I inserted the emboldened phrase in the wrong position in the original entry.

Some how, John's entry, which was originally #19, and those replies to his entry has been changed to 211 and 211.x so the reference I used in my second entry (Entry #19.8) is incorrect.

John's number sequence may be pushed further down by Newsvine. I wonder why entries don't hold their positions.

Gary, are you really mad with the victim? She is locked in a society and bound by laws which won't grant her freedom until she agree's to submit to them. And how will she leave the country Gary? Are you going to go and get her?

Excuse my last post. It was meant for John, not Gary.

I don't think your statement should offend anyone, cause basically you are correct and this goes back to the false Prophets of this world who religious teachings where not sanction from God.

Islam, the religion itself, is not horrible. On the contrary, what IS horrible is what tribal custom and self-appointed interpreters of Islam, the imams, have done in its name. What IS horrible is unchecked power in the patriarchy. What IS horrible is that the patriarchs control their own rampant sexuality by controlling the women they lust after, rather than their own lust. Mohammed said that all believers should "guard their gaze", meaning BOTH men AND women should be modest. The logical extension of this recommendation, in the Islamic way of "covering" would be that BOTH men and women would wear a burkha, or neither gender would be so burdened, and both would guard their gaze through internal discipline. The abuses of Islam are largely derived from tribal customs (like female circumcision in Africa, which is NOT required in Islam), and/or the result of POLITICAL/ECONOMIC/POWER ambitions. It is regrettable that a beautiful and pure way to link up with God has been so tainted. However, Christianity, in its pure form also beautiful, has been the rationale for all kinds of abuse, too. It may be that once an inspirational message has been delivered to mankind, it becomes corrupted by human tendencies to lust, greed and anger.

I am sorry to hear about the situation you implied going through. It must have been terrible.

Killing this rapist won't send a message to the men of this region that they all don't already know. That life there is nasty, brutish, and short. Violence is already the universal response there, and all that you accomplish by killing this rapist is the death of one man. It's just more blood on the hands of a broken society.

The situation described in this story if truly horrific. I feel nothing but sympathy for the victims of this crime, and outrage at both the rapist and the theocratic "democracy" that enabled him. The average citizen is guilty of nothing more than the misfortune of being born into an impoverished and ignorant society. They deserve to have the same basic human rights as we do.

That would be swell if they could have the same rights as a civilized society, only you cannot force a culture upon people who do not want it. That is why we are wasting our time there. They have been chopping each others' heads off in the desert for thousands of years and will continue to do so. The correct (and far less expensive) policy is to simply strike them relentlessly every time they promote a terrorist action against the US. Just knock the sh!t out of them from the air each and every time and eventually they will get the message. Attempting to set up a puppet democratic government while rebuilding their infrastructure is a complete waste of time and money. Billions are being funnelled to corrupt politicians and the Taliban itself.

...."we are wasting our time there".... Well said.

You're absolutely right. I never saw until now!!

We have absolutely no moral or ethical obligations to our fellow men and women.

Not only should we turn a blind eye to their suffering, but we should exterminate the lot of them (like the non-human, cockroaches that they are).

...but why stop there?

Not only should we kill them all, but we should make an example of them to all the other cockroaches that think that they can share the world with us (good God-fearing Christians).

We'll start by showing them how wrong they are about the god they worship by lining the streets with the crucified bodies of their children.

Next, we teach them about tolerance by boiling alive all of their men in bacon fat.

Finally, we demonstrate freedom by stripping the women of their burkas and leaving them in the middle of the wilderness to die from exposure.

How's that for a solution? If we follow these simple steps we can bring home our military, demonstrate to the world how AWESOME we are as Americans, and teach the rest of the world an important leason about the Christian charity. F-yeah!

I eagerly await the bro-some chest bumps that you're all going to give me for the excellent idea.

We tried setting up a nicer government. Sadly they elected people who are just as tyrannical towards women. We could have "spread by the sword" (i.e. forced them to live a different way), but that causes problems too. Should we really stay there? I think we're just wasting lives.

I would break out of jail and kill the rapist! It is time the United Nations did something. Something needs to be done to protect the rights of women! It is the 21st Century. Wake Up Afghans!

OMG! but I am not too shock ....this is a way of life there and it is not even Islam, it is the beliefs that they developed there over years. Each country in middle east has its own version of Islam. Even the judge thinks you can not get pregnant at your first sexual encounter !!!! I wonder which university he got his law %^$# degree? Oh wait probably he doesn't have one. All I can think right now is : more reason that, the only way out of this mess is educating people. Education, Education, Education, that is where our money should be spent not on bombs. It breaks my heart when I read this story because I kind of know where she comes from ; in her mind she is doing the right thing. And kudos to the American lawyer who is practicing in Afghanistan. Extraordinary people.

Airforcewife -789736 -

I agree with you. Books not bombs. Education is the only way to make positive changes there. Violence only begets more violence. That is unless we follow what appears to be the most popular sentiment on this thread, and commit genocide.

Lori-381885 -

YOU might attempt such a thing, but you have the benefit of knowing that there are alternatives to living that way. Killing the rapist isn't going to undo the damage he's done. It will just cover your hands in blood, and thus perpetuate the cycle of violence. I'm afraid most Afghanis aren't going to get your wake-up call. You see most of them don't have a computer, or understand English.

SPARTAN-501 -

Hell, yeah! When the going gets tough, the tough...take there ball and go home.

I'm sorry, Gulnaz, you don't deserve civil rights after all. You see, we don't feel that some of your people appreciate us, and so you (and all the others like you) are out of luck. Next time, you should really consider being born a white American.

Zen Hydra -- What executing the rapists accomplishes is he does not rape again. Since he has seen that the only consequence of his brutal rape is he gets to marry his chosen victim, why not do it again.

2nd. -- How are you going to educate when the powers that be in the country ,i.e., Islam , refuse to allow it. In Afghanistan non-Muslims are infidels and despised. Little girls have their schools burned down and acid thrown in their faces to preclude them being educated. The only approved education for most boys is in the Koran. Believe it or not but Muslim countries are not going to allow infidels to dictate the educational system. Any belief to the contrary is a fairy tale.

gary-309869 –

“It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.” - Unforgiven

Rape is a horrible crime that leaves its victims devastated, but the rapist in this case didn't murder anyone. What kind of measured response would killing this rapist be? How would that be justice?

The man in question did a terrible thing, but there is no reason to believe that he is irredeemable. Such is most especially if what he did was done out of ignorance. If the culture he was raised in believes that women don't have the right to deny the sexual advances of a man, there is no reason to believe that such a man wouldn't change his behavior when taught that such notions were wrong.

As to your second point, leaders change. Afghanistan is taking steps towards modernity. They are just not following your time-table. It is going to take a long time to educate a populace kept woefully ignorant for so long.

A huge point that you seem to overlook is that Americans are not, by default, infidels. We have a great many Muslims in this country, and I served with many of them when I was in the Army. If we need a connection to Islam to make inroads into the Afghan culture, we have them already.

Spoken like a coward - words to live by, folks.

We tried helping them. They refused to be helped.

@Zen - no, spoken like a realist. You cannot help those who are unwilling to be helped. Your delusions of white knight justice and fweedom are what got us into this mess.

The truth is the truth. Just like reality is reality. Leave those monkeys alone.

seig6529 -

Your insights into my mind are truly astounding. I had no idea my belief that all human beings are deserving of basic, human rights was so naive. That is, until you informed me of how blind I have been to the truth.

My eyes have been opened. I can see now that those rights should really only apply to white Christians living in the United States and Western Europe (at least the Western European countries that aren't full of commies and baby-eating atheists).

Doing difficult things sucks, and most especially when we aren't universally loved by everyone that we are trying to help. I can't believe that I used to think it was worth making an effort to help people, even when those people couldn't understand what you are doing for them.

I need to apply this new revelation to the parenting of my child. I will try and teach her things, but if she doesn't appreciate my efforts I am going to pack my stuff and leave. It's probably not worth the sacrifice I'll have to make to educate her.

Zen Hydra ----------------You're the one wanting to deny human rights to the raped women. Where is your belief that she is deserving of basic , human rights? You want her to go with no remedy. Outrageous! Where is her justice? Her justice is in the rapist being punished , with the loss of his life or a 40 year prison sentence , which you oppose because you deem justice revenge and seek to deny it. You are wrong.

"I need to apply this new revelation to the parenting of my child."

OK, how is parenting your child related to foreign intervention? I suppose the Middle East is run by children.

JazzMaster -

It's called an A-N-A-L-O-G-Y. An analogy is a comparison between similar things.

The analogy I used, in the post you reference, compares seig6529's lesson to the world about the quality of the American character (through his suggested course of action for the US military presence in Afghanistan) to teaching the same underlying concepts to my young daughter. In other words, teaching the world (or one's children) that we should only be willing to help until that task becomes difficult (in which case we should quit our efforts and abandon those we sought to help) is a terrible idea.

gary-309869 –

Where exactly do I say that this woman should have no legal remedy to the crimes committed against her? Please point it out to me.

Where did I say the rapist shouldn’t be fairly tried, and if convicted face an appropriate, measured punishment?

I DO believe that killing the rapist would serve NO positive purpose. Capital punishment is a fundamentally flawed concept. It serves no purpose other than revenge. The law should support justice, and not seek revenge. Revenge is poisonous. Vengeance is a virus that tirelessly jumps from one host to another. It perpetuates a never ending cycle of violence.

Zen-Hydra ------- Executing the rapist would serve a positive purpose-- he would never rape again. Not executing him always leaves open the prospect he will do so and it is probable here since he is now going to reap the reward of his victim as his wife under the ruling Islamic law. Now he can go out and rape other women and have the system order them to marry him.

Additionally your failure to specify what an" appropriate , measured punishment "is raises alarms. Tell us specifically what you believe in this crime such a punishment is.

Lastly, if you feel execution is simply " revenge ", how is imprisonment not simply " revenge " and therefore unacceptable to you, also? In fact how is any action taken against the rapist not simply " revenge " according to you?

gary-309869 -

Dead men are incapable change, incapable of restitution, and incapable of positively contributing to society. There is no reason to believe that even the perpetrator of a violent crime can't change and become a positive part of society.

You can't take back an execution though, and what about the wrongly convicted? Are they just part of your revenge omelet?

You appear so very ready, and willing, to take the life of this alleged rapist.

What, beyond the scant details included in this article, do we know about this case?

Even if we assumed that capital punishment was an appropriate response to rape (and WE don't), are you so convinced, on the merits of one internet news story, that this man deserves to die?

Do all rapists deserve death, no matter the circumstance? What about those who are wrongly accused? ...or in cases of rape, do to impaired judgment on the part of the victim? ...or in cases of statutory rape? What about sleep rape (it's real, look it up)? Should a person die because they raped another person in their sleep?

You say my call for appropriate, measured punishment "raises alarms". Really? What alarms would those be?

RED ALERT! RED ALERT! We have an individual that thinks execution isn't an appropriate universal punishment for every situation! We must find him and EXTERMINATE!

Complex situations call for complex answers. There is a reason that just any schmuck off the street isn't allowed to call themselves a lawyer in the United States. US criminal law is complex, and nuanced. ...and it is that way for a reason.

You ask what I think an appropriate, measured punishment would be for the alleged rapist in this article. I say to you that I don't know enough of the facts to pass judgment, or recommend punishment on this case.

In general, I believe that imprisonment is better than execution (you can't take back an execution if your wrong).

I believe that prison should be as much a place of rehabilitation as it is a place of punishment (punishment should be a corrective force, not a terminal one)

Well-educated people commit fewer crimes, especially violent ones, and so I believe that prison inmates should be educated as part of their rehabilitation (though I also believe that a society should be giving education to all of its constituent people - imprisoned, or otherwise).

A prison should have drug programs for the addicted, and mental health facilities for the mentally ill.

A prison should release prisoners in a state superior to the state they arrived in. Not as a reward to the prisoner, but as a reward to society.

Zen-Hydra -------- Piffle! Your response is 90% circumlocution and does not controvert my points. In order to discuss this article everyone on this tread has to assume it is accurate, otherwise it could not be discussed. Certainly, if the facts turn out to be other wise everyone may have a different opinion. But assuming it is accurate, you have not dealt with the following points:

1. The rapist will not rape another helpless women if he is executed. His experience with this rape has taught him he can rape with impunity and in fact his victum will be ordered to marry him. This makes him much more likely to rape again. Why would you expect he would change with this very positive reward he has received after raping under Islamic law? Why would he ever give up the benefits of raping?

2. As I just said, to discuss the article we have to assume the reporting is accurate. Assuming that is so, what term of imprisonment do you feel is appropriate. Just tell us what you would recommend if the facts reported are true. We won't hold you to it if the facts turn out to be otherwise. Thus far, you have dodged this question.

3. You have said that to execute the rapist would be simply to exact revenge and revenge is wrong. If that is so and , if you would impose a prison sentence for the crime, why would it not also be revenge imprisonment and therefore wrong? In fact , under your views why wouldn't any form of punishment of the rapist be a form of revenge and thus wrong to impose?

gary-309869 -

Piffle to yourself. Your irrational insistence that I should share an arbitrary number with this forum only demonstrates your lack of legal understanding. You have only managed to demonstrate that you are overly-emotional, and reactionary in your ridiculous call for blood.

I can throw out a number for a prison sentence, but it would be arbitrary, and meaningless.

One cannot properly adjudicate a sentence for a convicted criminal without the necessary details, and there aren't enough details in this article to understand the circumstances of the crime (even if we accept that he is guilty of rape).

What is the convicted's criminal history?

What other crimes were (or were not) committed during the commission of the rape?

What special circumstances (if any) of the victim are pertinent in regards to the rape?

I could go on, and on. Based on the details in this article alone, there aren't enough facts of the case to render a just sentence.

The average sentence for rape in the United States (barring no extenuating circumstances, or aggravating factors) is a prison sentence of around 11 years, and I don't find this to egregious.

Again, I believe that a prison sentence should include strong efforts at rehabilitation, and treatment for any underlying physical or psychological illnesses.

I will stress (again) that I don't necessarily think that 11 years of prison is an appropriate sentence for the crime described in this article, because we do not have enough of the facts to render a qualified, and well-reasoned opinion.

Zen-Hydra -- Well at least you made a half hearted attempt to answer one of the three questions. I can see how it would be difficult to honestly answer the other two. It's clear you just don't believe the rapist should receive condign punishment. I'm sure if it was up to you as the judge he would be sent home with a stern warning not to expect to be allowed to marry anymore of the women he rapes.

Zen..Our prisons do have treatment for the mentally ill as well as educational programs for those who choose to avail themselves of the opportunity. Unfortunately, there is very little evidence and many studies that have indicated that to the contrary rehabilitation for violent rapists is possible. Rape is about fantasy, lust, power, domination, and control. There is no known cure in spite of all the programs out there that claim success. Their claims are based on the short term and made to continue funding for their continued existence. Education will not cure a rapist. Castration, chemical or otherwise, does not work--violent rapist just will continue to rape by instrumentation or get underground testosterone shots. Shocks treatments via plethismograph is a failure--they know when the negative conditioning ends and resume their fantasies and rapes. Psychotherapy is just not effective. The Northwest Sex Offender Program is known to have the best results--but they depend highly on lie detectors and disclosure. If they fail, it is back to the big house...A good thing...It is also very costly. So, your argument for rehab of these scumbags is simply wrong. Rapists need to be locked up for life. Period.

Colorblind-2498596 -

The circumstances of the rape in this article are not detailed. We don't know if this rape was violent, or not.

The medical and mental health facilities available in most US prisons are far from ideal for effective treatment. They provide the minimum service required, by law.

The majority of rapists are not serial rapists. Your claims are hyperbolic.

it doesnt help with anything! we are as bad as them, simply we do things differently but it s still bad and it doesnt help us! it s only getting worse but hard to see it now.

Yep people get raped here in America. Yep sometimes rapist get let of on technicalities in court. Murderers get paroled and people are wrongfully imprisoned. BUT this is not life as usual. It isn't ingrained in our "traditions". Get real we are as bad as them. They've taken religious doctrine and over centuries twisted it to control their people.

heyyoo - Well said.