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Stringer/Egypt / Reuters
Women holding umbrellas stand in line during rain under an election poster by Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood "The Freedom and Justice Party'" outside a polling station as they wait to cast their votes during parliamentary elections in Alexandria on Monday.
CAIRO – The Muslim Brotherhood has already started coloring outside the lines in order to win a majority in Egypt’s parliamentary elections.
The organization, which gave its political branch the more ambiguous title, The Party of Freedom and Justice (FJP), is expected to win 40 percent of the seats in the lower house of parliament, according to analysts estimates. Official results from the first round of voting will be announced Thursday.
Based on our own observations at polling stations across Cairo and anecdotal evidence, they seem to have won support at the polls by bending the rules in their favor.
Free food and cheap meat
In Cairo’s Saida Zeinab neighborhood, at one of the busiest polling centers in the city, we saw a party member and two other supporters of an independent candidate passing out leaflets to voters waiting in long lines to cast their ballots – in clear violation of election laws. Soldiers who were on site for crowd control, did nothing to stop them. At the same spot, a tech-savvy FJP member sat on a bench, laptop in hand, to conduct exit polls. At other polling stations, they provided polling information to baffled voters.
In a more economically disadvantaged part of Cairo known as “The Slaughterhouse,” Hanan Nasr, a mother of three, watched FJP members pass out free packages of rice and oil to voters on their way to the polling station – again in contravention of campaign law. They also bused in party members from surrounding neighborhoods.
Voter confusion played into the hands of the FJP. Many voters simply did not know who the candidates were because of the sheer number of mostly unknown candidates (4,000), unknown parties (35 new ones since President Hosni Mubarak fell from power) and a complicated voting system requiring choices of farmer, labor and independent candidates.
Mohamed Abd El Ghany / Reuters
A woman casts her vote at a polling station during the second day of parliamentary elections in Alexandria, Egypt on Tuesday. Click on the photo to see a complete slideshow of pictures from the Egyptian election.
For those who did not understand the voting system, the FJP had people on hand before the election to explain how to make their ballots count – for FJP candidates.
Although Nasr voted for a liberal party, her son, Ali, opted for the only party he was familiar with, the FJP. Some FJP members had been signing up voters in Nasr’s neighborhood in the run up to the election and distributed free school supplies. And before the recent Eid al-Adha or Feast of the Sacrifice holiday, the one time of year when everybody in Egypt must have meat to celebrate the holiday, the FJP sold meat at half the market price to Cairo’s many disadvantaged.
Clearly, the FJP struck a chord with voters. Most of those we spoke to said they were voting FJP because they were well organized, helped the poor, and would uphold religious law.
“They look to God,” said taxi driver Saad Abdul Aziz, who voted FJP. “They must be just.”
Mahmud Hams / AFP - Getty Images
Muslim Brotherhood members distribute fliers to voters outside a polling station in the Manial neighbourhood of Cairo on Monday.
Shifting promises
In the wake of the revolution, the FJP initially promised to compete for only 30 percent of parliamentary seats, in order not to frighten civil society and the interim military government. They gradually upped that figure to 100 percent.
Likewise, a promise not to field presidential candidates was soon broken. The FJP had joined a much larger political bloc of secular and religious parties running for president, but the alliance fell apart when the FJP tried to dominate party lists.
The official election results will be announced Thursday evening, but the FJP is expected to win big in Egypt’s two largest cities, Cairo and Alexandria.
Since it’s a parliamentary system, their leaders have already demanded that if their party wins the largest proportion of seats as a party, they should be entitled to form the new government.
In view of the FJP’s track record of broken promises, many wonder what kind of government they would be and whether they will respect their promise to adhere to democratic process and take into account Egypt’s secularists and 10 percent Christian population.
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The FJP will no doubt honor their promises, in the same way muslims honor their promises to non- muslims. Their policies are well known to the population. They are Islamic fundamentalists. Fundalmentalism and radicalism are the same thing. There will not be freedom in Egypt.
The people in the Middle East are determined to regress in time, instead of going forward. How is this "organization", with such an extreme Muslim direction going to help Egypt?
You may as well say goodbye to any kind of progress. Are people really that stupid in there? How can they keep voting against themselves? OH! I forgot! We have a party called Republican Party...Same thing here...Never mind.
There will be no freedom in Egypt, until there is a separation of religion and government.
Irespond-2315268
Say goodbye to any kind of Progress. You can say that about the Democrats. Oh they have been progressing in one area, increasing American Debt.
Yeah! We can go ahead and repeat the old song about who really tanked the country...Never mind..You guys never listen..The Republican Party is the New Taliban and you fools can't even see that....
IRespond, you call others fools, when you are the fool. You say others won't listen when you don't listen. Typical liberal!
Realist-1226632......
Liberals will never listen to anyone's opinions, but they sure have a "set of opinions" provided by someone else since they cannot think for themselves. If you take a look at threads on Newsvine, and especially FirstRead articles, Liberal posters (i.e. Erico, Feisty, etc.) use the SAME talking points over and over.
As for IRESPOND-2315268.....how dare you call anyone within the United States the "New Taliban". You are a COMPLETE AND TOTAL FOOL.
Muslim Brotherhood . . . jezz . . . seems the the backwards CONSERVATIVES conned their way into an election victory. Wonder if Bush and Cheney are in Cairo "advising"?
There are very few parties in the US that can really be compaired the the Islamist brotherhood; neither of them are the Democrats or Republicans.
Yeah, the closest comparison is the "Tea Party," but they're not an actual party. Of course, neither is the Muslim Brotherhood.
No need to buy into the Fox News hysteria. Just because they are Muslim does not mean they are terrorists.
We already tried over-thowing Arab governments and installing puppet dictators; did not work out too well. We need to give them a chance to see how their version of democracy works out. Now that they have a vote, perhaps we will see some moderation of extremes in both directions. In any case, we need to let the middle east figure out their path to the future.
The freedom to vote is a wonderful thing, good for Egypt, no matter the result. That freedom was not there just a few months ago. Do they have candidates like Bush/Cheney with neocon advisers who bless the nation multiple 10 year wars and economic depression then have their followers blame the other party for the ill that befalls the nation while they were in charge? We will see.
Sounds JUST LIKE the demlibs here in St. Louis and other parts of the country like Chicago, where they register dead people and THEY vote, plus the whole bus-'em-in issue.
Toasty and company, you don't know what you are talking about. What's going on in the Arab World, where radical Muslims are taking over one country after the other, can only be compared with what happened in Europe before WW II with Nazis and fascists taking over one country after another. Egypt this year have witnessed many attacks on Christians every where from Aswan in the South to Alexandria in the North. These attacks resulted in the killing of many Christians, with hundreds injured and many Coptic homes, businesses and Churches destroyed or looted. As for the free election, didn't you read how corrupt was this election? Also the Salafis said it clearly that they don't believe in democracy but they entered the election because they know that they will win it.
This is the result of the Arab Spring promoted by Obama, Hillary and the Democratic party.
I am totally shocked that the Muslim Brotherhood came out on top and that there was corruption in the process (sarcasm added).
The Brotherhood will exert their Islamist faith on the entire population, treat women and infidels with disrespect, return to the days of Israel being the enemy, and hate the West.
Their neighbors in Tunisia, Morocco and Libya are not far behind.
To the young people of Egypt, the Facebook crowd, you will have to go to the "Square" again and start all over, your next leadership is worse than the last one.
well we did it again; the Muslim radicals will now be in power in Egypt; by the way, we built a state of the art M1A1 Abrams tank factory for the Egyptian government about 5 years ago, it can produce around 3 of the best fighting tanks a day, which will now be under the control of the radical Muslim terrorists, right on the Israel border. The Arab spring , is a now Arab nightmare .
but they follow God! They MUST be just!
Winning the election is the easy part. Controlling the streets is the hard part. The Egyptian Army and the Muslim Brotherhood have been ememies since 1954. At first they worked together to get rid of the king but it has been the Egyptians "presidents" who were always army officers that imprisoned and tourtured thousands of Brotherhood members. It was the Muslim brotherhood that tried to kill Nasir and did kill Sadat the Army won't forget that. The generals seemed to have the rank and files support and even sold out Mubarak out to keep power. The protesters in the street had many westernized people and they have seen what happens when the hard liners get power. So has the large Christian population. 10% of the total. In Iran the nonmuslim population was only around 2%. The people will expect things to get better immediately (kind of like the anti-Obama crowd) but Egypt isn't Iran there isn't any oil money. Without western aid Egypt's government will have to get it's money somewhere else. Egypt gets the second most US foreign aid out of all the countries in the world. Averaging over $2 billion a year.
Nobody has a good crystal ball, but I expect that history will repeat itself in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood will form a government, and will try to impose Sharia law in the country. They will attempt to ban all non-islamic activities (women showing faces, women driving, men without beards, etc). Then history will repeat itself. A group in the Army will get fed up and engineer a coup - seizing power. Just like Nasser, just like Sadat, and (except that Mubarak was the head of internal security) - just like Mubarak.
Egypt had the opportunity to have a democracy, but they chose to put themselves under the thumb of extremists. Oh well - back to a dictatorship. Then another coup and another military dictatorship. It is a shame that Egyptians are unable to break the cycle that they have lived for hundreds of years.
"The Muslim Brotherhood has already started coloring outside the lines in order to win a majority in Egypt’s parliamentary elections."
Why does this make me think of ACORN
How about everybody waits for the election results before saying what is gonna happen?
If you're worried Egypt will set up a government that oppresses Egyptians, somebody please explain to me how those Egyptians are helped along by hatred and oppression towards Egyptians.
Clearly if you read the article, the Coptic Christians in Egypt are committed to remain positive and work for justice. Clearly if you have been following world events, the moderates and the secularists and all sorts of other Egyptians are committed to remain positive and work for justice.
Clearly if you read the article, you see that the Muslim Brotherhood us using manipulative rhetoric and isn't indicative of what "all those people over there" really think.
Also: have we forgotten that when the United States began, it permitted slavery, forbid women from voting and refused Native Americans citizenship and legally permitted white settlers to kill them? Americans fought a war for freedom from England and without blinking created a society that was so un-free that anyone living today would be shocked to visit that world. YET we still look at our Revolutionary War with pride because it was a step forward. It took hundreds of years of faith in democracy and hard work to get to where we are, and we still striving. Perhaps critics should also give Egypt a chance to progress.
It's so depressing to see Americans - privileged to live in a society that believes people of all faiths, races and nationalities are endowed with the unalienable right to self-govern - glance at another group of people and smugly announce those people can't.
I don't get how you associate the Muslim Brotherhood with Rebublicans. Seems closer to the Democrats to me. It is the "liberals" (wow, they really need a more honest name) that tell people here what they can/can't do. The tea-party people (which I identify closest with) mostly want to be left alone to sink/swim but the liberals insist that those that work hard and succeed must be guilty of something and must support the lazy and inept among us. The liberals are also the ones that want maximal regulation and while on one hand insisting that the US (presumably the government) is bad, they want to grow that same government.
Similarly, the Muslim Brotherhood will want (do you really doubt this?) to expand the role of government in their country and dictate everything based on the collective mores of the muslim majority.
Remember, those of you who think that a majority vote always yields the correct result, - at least 90% (probably more) of people on the planet think *your* religion is wrong ... no matter what it is and whether you have one or not.
So let me see. The Muslim brotherhood lied to the voters, and relied on ignorant voters... Can someone tell me how they differ from politicians in the US?
The main difference is that they gave the people a little something (food) for their votes. More than most the politicians in the US do for their voters. Sounds to me like the Muslim Brotherhood has learned American Politics well!
Egypt has taken a huge step backwards. I feel so sorry for the people of Egypt. Obama was very vocal about removing Mubarak from power and yet he remains silent about the Muslim Brotherhood taking power.
I was getting mad at the posts here... why does EVERYTHING have to translate to a fight between Democrats and Republicans... even an article about Egyptian elections? Why? Because it reminds us of ourselves.
We are living proof that some political parties will make every move possible, some ethical, some not so ethical, but all within a "bent" law.
Can't be within 25' of the polling station... they'll be 25' plus or minus a few feet. Can't have election materials nearby? define "nearby"... they are there. I went to a Church polling station and in the hall near the poll was Their own "trash rag" with Obama in face-paint...
Campaign contributions? Up to the limit and more, changed names, PACs, corporations are people, create-contribute-disappear corporations... all stretching the law and ethics to and beyond the limit...
Arms-length lobbyists? What a laugh. Just listen to Newt... he NEVER "lobbied"... he just made speeches, gave advice and received payment for same, introduced people with "people"... WTF!
Soooo, those on both sides that claim the other never listens... listen to Egypt... watch what we are regressing to. We keep up our new-found brand of democracy and soon we will not be able to claim such a great society...
Continue down the path we're on and we'll: 1) No longer have separation between church and state, 2) will live with and accept intolerance, 3) will have our elections virtually hijacked by big-money, 4) will have a clear class system of those that have money and power and those that have neither, and 5) will not have salvaged our "true" democracy.
So stop the BS and watch Egypt carefully... and learn.
"Outside the lines?" Sounds like the Democrats.
Many of you crack me up when you mention how the Muslim Brotherhood "throws around" their faith in order to acquire votes, or promise something to the people that they don't actually expect to uphold. That's different than the US how?
Oh, and blame Obama for starting the Arab Spring? Yeah, (note sarcasm here), he's the one who invaded Irag to spread "Democracy"...(You remember the second excuse after no WMD's were found, right?).
Oh, now tell me how Hezbollah got into power? Wasn't that Bush's first failed Middle East policy? Demanding to let the people vote, they did, then we don't like the outcome?
People in this country vote against their best interest every election, they listen to the hype, propaganda and lies of both the candidates and the media. If you think the government is working in your best interest, you're as bad as the people you are laughing at in the Middle East.
The Democrats may scare me, but the Republicans terrify me!
I was going to say, this administration has gone out of its way to coddle muslims worldwide, and now they are becoming democrats!
There will never be true freedom or democracy in a country ruled by Muslims. The radical ideology of Islam is opposed to human rights and freedom of choice. You can't have it both ways.
Now tell the truth, don't you think those Egyptians are pretty darn stupid? When will the common people learn? They've made all these sacrifices and then turned around and voted for nothing more than a different color of rat.
Kind of reminds me of all the Americans still fighting over Democrat vs. Republican, as if they both weren't scum of the earth. Whining and crying about how we need a big change, but voting for the same old rats.
I guess people really are the same everywhere.
Toasty and you other libs or progressive types.... why are you spreading reasoned arguements on these message boards, busy calling a boiling kettle hot, confusing T'fauxers with clarity?
Ode to nuance,
Nuance, nuance, nuance.....
LOL
good post Mark,
it's right on.
Sure worked for Richard Daley in his 21 years as Mayor. America still shows smaller countries how democracy works.
I dont understand why it's bad that egyptians want a party that FOLLOWS GOD, that is RELIGOUS and that is CONSERVATIVE.
and it's a great thing, when americans want this and go towards the republican party.
the fear is that the muslim brotherhood is radical, wont allow freedom or democracy, will curb peoples rights and might possibly support terrorism and war.
yet, we dont fear conservative republican americans who in some ways are radical, wont allow freedom of some americans (gays) and want to limit democracy (michigan governor trying to overthrow benton harbor elected govt and install their own person to run that city), will curb peoples rights (right to assemble peacably to protest our govt)...and most definitely support our version of terrorism by invading nations we simply dont like and agree with in order to put in our idea of a democratic govt (which is oh so democratic isnt it) and most definitely have a lust for war.
No doubt a christian conservative would NEVER believe they are similar to the muslim brotherhood...but ask yourself this, how many people refuse to believe they are just like one of their parents...when it's blatantly clear to everyone else they are no doubt the same. Is your wife just like your mother in law, and she hates when you say that?
Why do you think that is? because it's hard to admit your worst features...the things you hate the most about someone else, are right there within you too...spin it however you want, but you are what you are.
JK - I could say the same thing about a nation ruled by christians. There will never be true freedom of choice or support for human rights.
Gay people can never be free when ruled by christians, muslims or jews.
But I somehow dont think THATS what you cared about...
Well, Women will never have freedom of choice under a truly christian ruled nation. They'll always be treated as 2nd class citizens who's only purpose on this planet is to bear children and raise children, while men be men and do manly things...
We live, thankfully, in a secular nation...but that does not stop christians from trying to impose their will on everyone else...we need only see the current debate/climate surrounding gay marriage and gay rights.
Sounds like a Democrat tactic! One can only wonder if this is the preferred outcome when O'bama called for Mubarak to step down.
Glad I am not the first to notice how their tactics are the same as some tactics employed by groups here in the states. Nothing spells freedom like illegally influencing the vote in your favor.
saxon, a push of a couple of buttons can solve that tank factory.
"Most of those we spoke to said they were voting FJP because they were well organized, helped the poor, and would uphold religious law. ", "religious law", there's your problem. If any of these "FJP" party people win can't they tell them "Too bad. You broke election rules."? Why do we bother to help other countries? Is it to make them hate us more? Is it so we can educate more of it's people on how to blow us up? Loads upon loads of "aid", most of the time in the form of cash that never makes a difference where it's needed.... And what a sh!tty situation we're in on our own soil....
I'd like to remind everyone that Turkey has an Islamist party in power and they seem to be doing well. I suppose that's how Islamist parties will behave from now on, by trying to accomodate themselves with seculars and people of other religions.
It's good to see how they modernized themselves that way.
This doesnt surprise me. THis is what extremist religious sects do to win elections, a la Florida in 2000 Presidential election.
Jessica - America is a "nation ruled by Christians" and we do have freedom of choice, freedom of speech (which you just practiced) freedom of religion, anti-discrimination laws for women, race, handicap, etc. We are working on equal treatment for gays and we have come a long way - there is always room for improvement. BIG difference compared to Muslim ruled nations. (You should make your statements based on the facts so people can respect your comments.)
Obama was clear that Mubarak had to go. Recently he told the army to give up their power. So who did Obama think was going to get the power ? All of us on this site were certain that the Brotherhood would be the organization getting the power. Do you think Obama did not understand that? He was silent about the Brotherhood because he is fine with them getting the power. If you suggest he was silent about this Islamic group that has made it clear their direction because he didn't want to interfere, he did interfere when he kicked Mubarak and lately the army under the bus. So Obama is more than willing to take sides and he has.
Put all the blame on Eric-NY who had no business opening the can of worms by blaming democrats when we are discussing an issue in Egypt!!
Almost like the religious right just a different name.
I guess its OK when our Church's dictate doctrine but its not ok for anybody else Right wing religious fundamentalists in this country want the rights of Americans taken away just like the Muslims.
Welcome to the American nimby
With the exception of Ron Paul, I would bet you couldn't name a single American politician which has kept their election promises. I'm sure the FJP will do no worse than any other group of politicians.
Translates: "Republicans" bend rules and expects to win big in "U.S."
Translates: Free "fodder" and "red" meat
Translates: Just sub "GOP" for "FJP"... lol.
You people need not fear... they are EXACTLY like us!
These people just exchanged one type of dictatorship and tyranny for another. They cry that they want freedom but are afraid to claim it. There IS NO freedom under religious rule, I don't care what religion it is.
Egypt: the Florida of the middle east.
@Eric:
I agree, and sadly, the same must be said for this country as well.
God does not vote. People do.
Robert Rorer banned, re-reg of recently suspended rebuttal53, also banned.
IRESPOND-2315268, Realist-1226632, ldo, you are all suspended for a day for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.
@LMarcT
I noticed that you didn't mention Democrat New Black Panther members standing in front of a polling place with batons hollering racial slurs and intimidating voters...interesting
kinda makes your diatribe a bit biased...
or the dead people that voted Democrat in 2008...or any of the other liberal cases that have been uncovered...certainly not unexpected that you do not mention the liberal tricks and scams
Isn't this the group Obama supported in Libya? Why isn't the press all over that....Oh I forgot Obama is a Democrat and they do not cover his mistakes very often....if it was a Republican they would be hitting on that for weeks several times a day.
Liberal hypocrisy at its best.
Anytime, any religious group is able to effect laws, you lose freedom. Any religious group.
The Dims, Libs, far Left Nut Jobs, Socialists (unions) and Communists (college students) supported the entire "Arab Spring" from the very beginning even when the FACTS were glaring us right in the face. Now it is clear that the people behind it are reaping the fruits of their labor. The goal of the Left is a total breakdown of society (just like soviet union, china, cuba and so on) so that they can "rebuild" the country in their twisted image. Look how many people died in those revolutions. Look how many died AFTER these revolutions. Be very afraid of the Leftys. Stalin called his loonies "useful idiots". How true.
And this is why poor and down trodden people are screwed. They are devoid of logic.
Not so, Buffalo breath.
Poor and down trodden people are oppressed, as you say, because they reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. The same for the rich and "trodding" on people.
But that is exactly what you meant when you said," devoid of logic", isn't it?
"The beginning of wisdom is the fear the LORD." Proverbs 1.7 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Your religion is just as flawed and corrupt. "A camel can sooner pass through the eye of a needle, before a rich man can enter the kingdom of god." And yet look at christian churches... storehouses of wealth and opulence. Look at Pat Robertson: The richest evangelist in the world. And he has given virtually nothing to charity. And he benefits richly from the blood diamond trade.
Yeah, your religion is no better than any other.
That makes no sense Herald. And your quote of Proverbs is wrong.
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge;
fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Interpret that however you want, because that makes no sense either. Trying to use "logic" in an argument about religion is contradictory.
Herald, there is only one true Lord and Saviour...Golmesh from sector 9.
Yep, we call 'em Republicans, here.
Mindless liberal blather there JK. Those of us that still think for ourselves are anxious to hear our President's opinion now of this victory he is claiming to have provided the people of Egypt.
Hey, apparently the liberals embrace fundamentalist Islam, note how many Code Pink and other groups of that ilk have embraced Islam, supported them during the protests, all in the name of 'freedom' and 'democracy.' Note as well the tactics used by the Muslim Brotherhood, straight out of the Chicago democratic machine. Buying votes with food, (rather than booze and cigarettes,) dragging the voters to the ballot boxes and teaching them how to vote for 'their' candidates and then you have the broken promises and lies. I am not surprised that liberals defend them.
Jamhekan
“They look to God,” said taxi driver Saad Abdul Aziz, who voted FJP. “They must be just.”
And this is why poor and down trodden people are screwed. They are devoid of logic.
Well said.
It is one of the flaws of democracy, the average intelligence of the voting population is exactly that, average. In Egypt, the rampant illiteracy is a shoe-in for the religious party of Allah. If Mohammad Atta were alive today I am certain he'd be a top running candidate.
I seriously doubt that there will be a bill of rights to protect the rights of minorities like the Coptics. Egypt will decline into mob rule with gangster Imams, like Iran.
They aren't looking to God. They are looking to human beings who are claiming to speak for God but instead are cheating them out of freedom. The God I believe in is nothing like this. Those of you who seem to be claiming that God is the reason for people to have a lack of freedom and/or a lack of intelligence need to remember that our Declaration of Independence was not written by atheists. As it states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." I'm not saying at all that this is a Christian nation or that the founders were all Christians or that anyone has to believe in God in this country; I'm only making the point that belief in a Creator was stated in the Declaration as one reason why people had the right to liberty-therefore God was not a surpressor of freedom as far as the formation of the US is concerned. Furthermore, it was Christians like William Wilberforce who led the initial movement to free slaves in England.
It is not a belief in God that leads to a loss of freedom; it is people who twist the words of God and oppress other people who cause a loss of freedom. Also, many of you seem to have forgotten that many, if not most of the major scientists over the centuries have believed in God-Including Kepler, Boyle, Faraday, Mendel, Kelvin, and Max Planck. Surely none of you are going to argue that these people were not intelligent or that they turned off their brains to believe.
.
Interesting statement, since you are clearly discussing religion with Herald. Does this mean that you are not trying to use logic or that you are being contradictory?
Can you please point out where Obama claimed he had anything to do with Arab Spring or it's results in Egypt? You are correct about the mindless blather, but it's not coming from the left....
Obama didn't help the Muslim Brotherhood get in power. All he did was stir things up a little bit and let the Egyptians handle it from there.
And how exactly did Obama stir up Egyptian sentiment about Mubarak, who'd been in power as Egypt's 4th president for 30 years? What did Obama do to create anger over Mubarak's rule and corruption?
Mister Earl, don't forget to throw in the so called Rev Shake Down Jackson and Rev God Dam America Wright and their Multi Million Dollar Mansions. They leach off the people too.
I have to say this quote scared me a little.
While I think the Muslim Brotherhood is not the correct choice, my comment was not to say that it was a "wrong' choice. It's was more to show how they population got to that choice. If we want democracy around the world, then we have to be prepared to live with the consequences.
Herald "Poor and down trodden people are oppressed, as you say, because they reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. The same for the rich and "trodding" on people."
the poor and oppressed, are poor and oppressed...because rich people "trod" on them...and I assume, since you isolated out the rich and poor as lacking jesus, we must assume the folks in the middle are the ones with jesus...who sit by idle and do nothing, nothing to help the poor be less down trodden and oppressed, nothing to stop the rich from oppressing and causing more poverty through their greed...apparently, good christians are content to mind their own business and just pray to GOD it's enough.
"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" (Rev. 3:15-17).
Robert, you're consuming way too much space and air for such a small mind. You're going to have to do better than just spouting lies and innuendo if you're to be taken seriously around here. I think if you look around there is probably a 12 step program for Faux junkies.
Careful of modern translations Jessica, they can quickly take you down the primrose path.
@Herold:
I cannot disagree more.
Long before christianity was invented (at least 300 years after the events its only 'historical' record was first written), there were poor and downtrodden. There always have been, and there will continue to be until the human race grows up.
This has nothing to do with accepting or rejecting a mythical zombie-man-god, and everything to do with the simple nature of the human animal.
Like any other animal, we want to keep what we claim as "ours". We may share with our trod, family, friends, allies, but we generally don't do so because we want them to have what we have, but rather because we want something in return - continued relations, mutual protection, better mates, whatever it might be that we want.
There have always been those who have been able to accumulate "more" - more crops because I got up earlier than everyone else, or worked later than everyone else; more water, because I live next to a spring, more territory, because I traded some of my extra crops and water for a little more land where I can grow more crops and find even more water.
I put no faith in christianity, because like its pedobred cousin, islam, it came from the middle east.
Nothing good ever has or ever will come from the middle east.
Look we elected a bunch of tea baggers who are no different.
"Interesting statement, since you are clearly discussing religion with Herald. Does this mean that you are not trying to use logic or that you are being contradictory?"
Was merely pointing out that one arguing in favor of religion and using what they call logic to defend that point of view is contradictory. Sorry if I confused you. Let me give you an example:
There is a mystical person living in a mystical land. Logically, this person exists. Forgot to mention the talking burning bush, logically, we should listen to the talking burning bush.
See what I did there?
not really
Well, at least you can read.
Indigo Rage - "Nothing good ever has or ever will come from the middle east."
Funny, considering that the species homo sapiens is said to have evolved in the Middle East and spread from there...
Although I am not so sure I would disagree.
And did we really expect anything different? I remember when the 'Black Panthers' stood outside voting places and our AG refused to do anything about that? So, what makes us any different? Egypt will have their government and if it is controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood, it will still be their government and not ours!
OnTheRoad-1943197"Egypt will have their government and if it is controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood, it will still be their government and not ours!"
So where does that leave us? We still have to deal with the problems that result. As do the innocent people and new generations in the future, creating an ever lasting cycle until something or someone breaks it. We shouldn't be satisfied until we see a country with peace, freedom (loose word but u know) and education for the masses.
You may see different countries divided for one another, and think it doesnt matter. What happens to one country expands to others. we are all connected. We are all related by blood, this planet is home to all of us. America has shown us that different races can come together in harmony if we simply let go of the past disputes and look to the future.
Ryanwill37: you say "We shouldn't be satisfied until we see a country with peace, freedom (loose word but u know) and education for the masses." So, are you saying that we should invade Egypt like Iraq if they don't put in a government like we feel they should? It is their country, their vote (legal or illegal) and there is not a lot we can do about it without use of force! So, again, what do you feel that we should do if the Muslim Brotherhood wins and takes over control of the country?
hate to say it but ONTHEROAD is right. The muslim brotherhood is obviously a bunch of hate-fueled @!$%#s, but if the Egyptian people elect them then they are the ones for the job. The anthropoligical term "cultural-relativism" comes to mind. We don't know any better than anyone else, and we should impose our customs/philosophies on anyone else until we make the perfect set of customs/philosophies. Since that's outright impossible we should shut up and leave well enough alone.
It will be their government but our problem. Many are too young to remember and the press has failed to remind people that the same group has in the past promoted the death and complete destruction of Israel and all of it's citizens, destruction of America, imposition of strict Islamic law through out the world, banning Christianity in Egypt, the end of women's rights by such as seperate "different" education, requiring special clothing, etc.
These are the same people who helped form Hamas. Even most Arabic countries are wary of this group and Saudi Arabia has cautioned that they has been instrumental in the destabilization of the Arab world. Now they profess to support elections and democracy. Soon they'll control the Suez Canal and eventually a large military. This is not necessarily what the majority of Egyptians want but will get by political manipulation. I'm all for democracy and freedom in Egypt but we have to remember that democracy doesn't always mean freedom and human rights.
How many of us said this months ago when this so-called revolution started. Way to go Obama, supporting terrorists in both Libya and Egypt, 2 stable secular governments in the ME!
Linda, you are beyond dumb!
Sticks and stones, Mike. So, you are willing to turn a blind eye to the truth in order to support this inept president?
Linda,
The bottom line is that Obama is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Hell, Newt (the right's new darling), managed to criticise him for not supporting the no-fly zone in Libya and then for supporting it within days.
On the other hand you all call Obama inept and then turn right around and give him credit for deposing a foreign leader in 14 days. Which one is it?
I also find funny how you clasify Khaddafi's regime as a "stable secular government". Technically it is true if you consider that stable = oppressive and murderous (or did we forget Lockerbie already?).
Linda,
"inept" ??? are you talking about Cain ? Bachmann? Gengrich ??
talk about inept, these people you want to vote for are worse than inept, they are down right stupid !!
on the road agian-- All I said is we shouldnt be satisfied. I think Libya is a perfect example of how we go about the battle for peace. Yea egypt voted for the government, and thats a great start. But they are probably making the same if not a bigger mistake. The good part is, its a free election, and thats a start. My comment was directed against the idea, that what happens in Egypt is none of our business. I disagree. We are a world community and we are all linked. Invasion of these countries would of course be stupid. But we should by all means necessary be prepared to aid any rebellion with arms and civilian protection. I think its a fair argument.
But ontheroad again, i may have missunderstood the dept of your comment. you make a good point that, it will be there government. My comment may not have been warranted.
But linda. Corporateshill is right, calling obama inept when all the others are down right clowns. Its clearly biased
i think everybody expected Muslim Brotherhood to win fairly or unfairly ............so we should be no surprised
Free voting. BS
Its so easy for evil and self righteous people to gain support. Just mention god and the majority religion and the masses just go for that party because they are uneducated about policies and and history. Im not against religious people, but its the same all over the world. Republicans get votes simply because they repeatedly mention god and Jesus. If people only knew that this is a perfect cover and takes merely no effort at all. A perfect window for evil to enter....egypt will not be free from its own power.
Germany, and Japan rose to become great nations because a third party mediated and created rules to establish a fair system. There arnt many other ways.
From one dictator to another....only these ones aren't chummy with Israel.
What they profess to believe is fundamentally a lie and a delusion.
So true, same as Christianity and Judaism. A big fat lie! Religion does not belong in government, in any form.
It reminds me of the following quote:
The fact that people have manipulated others using Christianity and Judaism and still do, which I fully acknowledge, does not automatically make the religions themselves a lie, nor would a belief that religion should stay out of government. Have you looked at recent archaeological discoveries and thoroughly investigated historical sources to the point where you can say without a doubt that they are definitely a lie? My investigations have produced a lot of correlations between the Bible and recent archaeological discoveries such as seals, bullae, reliefs, and various other findings-some of which had been in private collections for years. Many very ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament are also available-more than for any other ancient historical document and dating back to within less than one hundred years of when the New Testament was written; this is closer to the time of the original writing than any manuscripts we have for Homer's Iliad, any of Plato's writings, Caesar's Gallic Wars, and others. I realize that historical data does not prove any miracles, but it keeps one from dismissing the entire Bible outright as pure fantasy.
Even if religion has some factual basis, what makes you think it belongs in government? The government is there to serve the people, nothing more. Obviously this doesn't usually happen, but that's besides the point.
The constitution was designed to keep the government out of religion, not the other way around....
If the government represents the people, and the majority of the people identify as Christian, shouldn't people expect that to be reflected?
You can't please everybody.... but it's easy to please a majority...
Ray In Jax, the same could be said of Islam, could it not?
Just another example of "Be careful what you wish for" The US wanted Mubarek out but they had no way to control who took over in his place and now Egypt will probably end up looking a lot like Iran in the way it is governed.
The US didnt really want Mubarek out. Egypt had a revolution and everyones hands were basically tipped when people were getting slaughtered on the street being broadcast across the world. And everyone had to accept they were going to be allowed to vote for who they wanted. Bottom line is. many young Egyptions are tech savvy and not the dumbest in the world. They want their freedoms. if the Muslim Brotherhood treads to hard they will be booted as well and their will be another uprising. Fact is the majority dont want war and want their choice. many younger generations which is a huge part love their Western freedoms. Look what facebook did to get it starter along with twitter. And anyone we support we fight eventually. maybe having a group we dont want in to support will be ones we dont give weapons to if we ever need to fight
How exactly did the U.S. want Mubarak out of power? He was a staunch U.S. ally...
Some of the comments here in Newsvine are simply amazing.... what a reflection of intelligence...
Ray, I'm sure you meant lack thereof (intelligence). No matter what it is it's Obama's fault.
This is what almost anyone familiar with Egyptian politics predicted. The only two choices in Egypt are a) the military or b) the Muslim Brotherhood. They are the two institutions with which Egyptian people identify.
One problem for Americans and Europeans is that they do not understand Muslim institutions very well. In most Arab traditions there is a melding of charity, religion, politics , and military activity in a single group. It is as if you combined the Democratic Party, the American Red Cross, the Methodist Church and a couple of divisions of infanty into a single entity. (Or the Republican Party, Americans for Tax Freedom, Scientologists, and Blackwater, if yuou will.) Coming from a nomadic background this makes perfect sense in blending together similar functions to Arabs but is an impossible complex and contradictory thing to Westerners. We tend to see the Muslim Brotherhood or Hezbolah or Hamas as somehoe monolithic terrorist grups when the vast majority of their activities are social welfare --- as in medical clinics and schools, relitious --- such as maintaining mosques, political --- as everywhere, and a kind of standing militia. There was a time in this country when the same thing prevailed. Because of necessity most organizations in this country in the early days centered around a church or a tavern. All self-defense was locals who brought their own guns. And again, all political activity involved the same bunch of guys who did everything else together. And the British thought of us as terrorists and especially of American churches as cesspools of ignorance.
There never was any other choice in Egypt except to choose to keep a military dictatorship in power and ripping off the top 15% of the total economy. They trust the Muslim brotherhood because it is their friends and family and neighbors. But the Muslim Brotherhood is going to have a bad case of indigestion over their neighbor, Israel which, like Americans, see these social mega-groups as nothing but terrorists.
Yeah, sort of like during the1920-30's and Weimar Germany when 20 plus consortiums took to the streets to vie for jurisdiction and power only to have a Nationalist Socialist movement that saved the nation. Gee-- I guess they get what they desrve since they voted for it. And when the rest of the world figures this out and needs to defeat the insanity that will ensue, it will likely mean too late or wwiii. History is full of brown shirt types that want your vote only become the elected and do their worst on their chosen enemy. The rhetoric from the left is no better than the diatribe calculus the right gives us.
At least in Egypt the majority of the population comes out to vote and here in the US we are lucky to have more than 40% of any jurisdiction vote in any election. Talk about backward logic?
A theocracy serves nobody except religious clergy and their despots in government. Everybody else lives under oppression.
Mark my words, if the so-called Muslim Brotherhood wins, the people will regret it and we will see a more bloody uprising in the future!
they dont know the living God. How can a Govt be just besides God's Kingdom?
put faith in God not men.
yet the world has not learned from history.
Which god? There's hundreds of them, and all of them are useless to us.
Yeah, theocracies worked so well in the past. Why did we not keep such a wonderful system?
"The State of monarchy is the supreme thing on Earth........ As to dispute what God may do is blasphemy, so is it treason in subjects to dispute what a king may do."
A good king will frame his actions according to the law, yet he is not bound thereto but of his own goodwill."
--King James I of Scotland. You may have heard of the King James bible? Guess who had final editorial rights on that lovely little piece of work.
Thomas Jefferson, who was instrumental in framing our government, believe that organized religion was a friend to the tyrants.
Doesn't the very same God command you to obey thy father and mother, and honor your leaders?
sad but true
Didn't the Ayatollah Khomeini make the same promises after they ousted the Shah ? Hope for the best from the Muslem Brotherhood, but expect the worst !
So the Arab Spring has turned out to be an Islamist Winter? I am shocked...SHOCKED! And so were my fellow inter-nuts, who have been predicting this since the revolt began.
All you had to do was look at the polling results in the very first Palestinian election to make that call...
As Bender would say: "Gasp! This is quite a shock! On the other hand, it's not surprising in the least."
welcome to the evil in Egypt. evils in power, deceiving, killers, kidnappers, liars, using religion to get to power,
and they do not care about Egypt, they are looking to put all the middle east countries in one big country and rule.
half of them were in jail and the high army made a deal with them to leave them the power and let the high army which means the people rule the army not to prosecute and the Muslim brotherhood rule Egypt, and Obama administration is supporting them. this is the end of the story, but all i could hear juses will not leave his Christians copts people. Jesus blessed his people (Christians copts),
Hey Mr. Prez and Mrs. Clinton, meet your newest allies, soon to be your enemies. They thank you so much for your support and wonder when they can get a better foot in the U.S.
Looks like the Muslim Brotherhood took a page right out of the Democrats handbook.
Don't call us socialists/muslim botherhood we're democrats/fjp.
Here have something for free to vote for us and we promise there will be more freebies to come.
The FJP has been identified as conservatives, just so you know.
canon-2792132
All the democrats I know are hard working, educated, family oriented people. Not one is looking for freebies. They are a little more compassionate I would agree. They do not like seeing homelessness when there are vacant houses, but they ask for no freebies.
None of the democrats I know are pro-muslim brotherhood, or behave anything like them. The religious right is more akin.
You are an ignorant person, by definition.
Ah, it feels good to say "I told you so..."
Thank you, president Carter for installing Islamists in Iran. Thank you president Obama for installing Islamists in Egypt.
Arab Spring looks like a disaster in the making for the West. When Arabs vote they bring the most evil ideology to power. What is wrong with these people?! Liberal s will support them, but I still wonder how they are going to accept Sharia when it outlaw gays.
Thank you President Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1 & 2 for supporting Islamists in Kuwait, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Jordan, Palestine, France and the USA
We really don't want to hear it Alex
Your partisan kool-aid has clouded your vision Alex... I don't see liberals lining up to support a known terrorist organization...
drink up buddy....
Hmm, they support a president that does!
Um, LInda, your robotic talking points have also clouded your thinking. Two posters just got through pointing out how the libs have done no more to advance Islamism than the Repubs.
How ironic that an article that questions the Egyptian people's thinking is responded to by people like you.
There's one born every minute. Grab them before they block traffic.
W C Fields.
Headline: Arab Spring leads to Western civilization's fall. Just when you think Arab tyrants are losing to Jeffersonian democracy something even worse raises its head. That's what happens when you give Arabs a country rather than borderless deserts to roam. It's all the League of Nations' fault.
Don't forget Europe's liberal immigration policies. I predict an Islamist revolution IN Europe within 40 years. First by voting, then by murder.
200 years ago John Adams had a lot to say about Islam, and none of it complimentary.
FJP sounds a lot like ACORN--front-men for a more sinister organization.
Actually, If the Muslim Brotherhood took power, things could get very dicey.
Especially when Israel hits Iran's nukes.
Also, the palestinians supply lines would be fully open.
Of course if Turkey goes to war with Syria?
Interesting times. Lot's of possibilities.
And why do you think Israel has spent years bulldozing a clear zone and building a giant wall to hem the Palestinians out of Israel? Surely they must know something about their closest neighbors?
No way would this new regime violate the peace accord of Begin and Sadat.!!! No Way ;-)
Dan,
Could it be because Christians put the Jews in Israel to protect their sacred places rather than have the Muslims in control of them? Think about the origins of the modern country that is Israel and the motivations behind them...