E-mail updates
Follow on Twitter
Subscribe to RSS
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints
Patrick Hiltbrand, American missionary in Japan.
It was faith that landed Patrick Hiltbrand in the path of a tsunami last week, but arguably it was also his faith that got him out —as he survived the deluge in the upper floor of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the small town of Tagajo. Despite the ordeal he has survived, he so far has no intention of leaving Japan soon, and that too has to do with his religious convictions.
“Right now, I’m here in Japan for two years to serve God,” said the 20-year-old speaking from a mission in Sapporo. He is determined to return to the disaster zone to help with recovery, but awaits instruction: “My (mission) leaders are receiving guidance from God,” he said.
For members of the Mormon church, going on “mission” is a rite of passage. At any given moment there are about 52,000 Mormon missionaries working around the world — most of them between 19 and 21 years old. In order to remain focused of their religious work, they are asked not to watch television, follow the news or call their families and friends. On their one day off a week, they can write letters or email.
Hiltbrand, from Pocatello, Idaho, is the third son in the family to go on mission, but the first to be sent overseas. Being chosen for Japan was "beyond his wildest dreams," said his mom, Corrie Hiltbrand. He had been evangelizing in Sendai area of Japan for about 15 months when the quake struck.
Dressed in the standard issue white-shirt-and-tie, he and his “companion” Yuji Aiura — Mormon missionaries always travel in pairs — had arrived by bicycle to a small restaurant in Tagajo, a river town about two miles from the ocean.
They were discussing the power of God with two local Japanese when the shaking began. They ignored it at first says Hiltbrand — there are so many small quakes in this region — but not for long.
The growing fury of the rumbling drove them to take shelter under a table. Then they decided to run outside.
“There was a loud bang and everything was moving in every direction,” Hiltbrand says. “Cars were rocking on the street.”
When it stopped, the two missionaries jumped on their bikes and rode to check on their apartment, then headed to the Mormon church in Tagajo, dodging newly created crevices and open manholes.
Along the way, Hiltbrand registered the shock and fear on faces all around him, wracking his brain for the right course of action.
“As we started toward the church I turned to my companion and said ‘our job today is to help people be happy as we can,'” said Hiltbrand. “I tried to smile and say hi to everyone.”
It is in Hiltbrand's character to try to cheer people, said his mother. She describes him as tough in the face of adversity, outgoing and enthusiastic about whatever task is at hand. Right before leaving on mission, the electronics student needed to make some money—and the only job he could get was standing on a corner wearing a big sign for a local pizza joint.
“He stood on a street corner flipping and spinning that sign. He never stopped moving,” said Corrie Hiltbrand. “He said, ‘If this is what I have to do for my job, then I’m going to go all out,’ and that’s what Patrick does.”
Any illusion that the disaster was over quickly passed as traffic built—with cars heading inland toward Sendai. Then police and fire vehicle sirens began blaring tsunami warnings.
Patrick Hiltbrand
The scene in Tagajo, Japan, about 2 miles from the coast, after the tsunami swept through the city.
Hiltbrand and Aiura climbed to the second story of the church, a building that is raised 4 to 5 feet off the ground.
The watched out the window as the water level rose rapidly, aided by the river that wraps around the town—and sucked their bicycles into a torrent, along with cars and debris.
Water began pouring through the church’s mail slot in the door of the first floor.
“From the second floor it sounded like a waterfall,” said Hiltbrand. “I went downstairs, and as I watched it coming in … the glass on the door shattered and water came pouring in.”
The water rose to about four feet before it started to subside he said.
It was 20 hours before the young missionaries could venture outside. They were not able to go to the emergency meeting site designated by their mission because they were isolated on the wrong side of the swollen river. There was no cell service to get instruction from higher-ups at the church.
“It was a real ‘what do I do’ moment,” Hiltbrand said in a matter-of-fact voice. “(Aiura) said, ‘We need to get to Sendai,'” about 20 miles away.
They trudged through standing water, navigating through the piles of cars and wreckage. Japanese residents were also wading through the remaining water, some carrying elderly family members on their backs.
A local church member driving toward Tagajo from Sendai spotted Hiltbrand and Aiura as he neared the town. He turned around them and drove them to the unscathed mission in Sendai city, about 24 hours after the quake.
The church has since moved all 200 of its young evangelists from Tokyo and the Sendai area to missions they believe to be a safe distance from the radiation leak at the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant.
Click here to follow Kari Huus on Facebook
Hiltbrand is now at a mission in Sapporo — on the northern island of Hokkaido. On Friday he and other evacuees were getting health evaluations and briefings on the full scope of the disaster, including the radiation leaking from Fukushima — a crisis that has prompted the U.S. government to offer U.S. citizens evacuation from Japan.
Hiltbrand said he has no thought of going back to Utah early. And his mother said she is 100 percent supportive of his plans—even after a tense and prayer-filled 24 hours of uncertainty about her son’s survival.
“(To ask) for him to come home never even went through our minds,” she said. “Patrick is where he has planned to be all his life…. We knew he was where needed to be and when we heard from him that he had been protected. And we know that he will be protected.”
For his part, Hiltbrand is itching to get back to the disaster zone.
“I really want to be in Tagajo helping people,” he says. “I have many friends in Tagajo and I don’t know how they are. I don’t know how they will clean it all up and I want to help.”
But, as senior leaders of the LDS church told msnbc.com earlier in the week, the missionaries, although enthusiastic, may be more of a burden than a help at this stage.
So Hiltbrand waits until the church says it is OK for him to change his mission — from saving souls to salvaging lives.
“All I know is I’m now in Sapporo because I’m supposed to be,” he said.
Leave a Comment:
The cultural and religioius arrogance of these missions is clear. The Mormon Church believes it is the white man's burden to bring the unwashed heathen masses to their cult.
I would expect better from a church whose founder was in flight of the law. Something like humility.
Sterngard... I'm sorry you're so bitter.
Sterngard, I know you'r here to simply troll and lash out at folks who believe in the LDS faith but I have to wonder how you live with yourself speaking such things about folks Sterngard when you appear to have little info on the religion itself. You know, the LDS faith is one of the most highly educated groups of people in the world, including every subject known to man. The faith provides their tenets without force or coercion, and if you ever want to know the whole story of what they believe you can actually look it up. I find it sad that you chose to speak in racist term as well, such conduct is unbecoming all of us. A note on being in flight of the law, you will find, if you decide to study religions, that many religious leaders had to hide from the law, in fact most of them did who ever made a massive impact, ever heard of Jesus perhaps? Anyway, best of luck to you, I just hope you learn to educate yourself instead of acting in a way that indicates a level of knowledge below the facade of your expressions.
Most of the Japanese are Buddhist's. They have strong belief in the oldest religion there is on earth. And, that is where there perseverance, tenacity, kindness, politeness come from. Why the Mormons would go into this country is beyond my comprehension, because in my opinion, of all the religions that are out there, Buddhism is the most peaceful, loving kindness religion there is.
Slinger... Buddhism is a wonderful religion. However, There are 125000 members currently in Japan. Obviously not everyone agrees with you. Freedom of religion is a good thing.
Chris Lott: (any relation to the biblical incest Lott?)
Nice haul for LDS:
125,000 x ($29,000.00 x .12) = $435,000,000 per year --- not a bad haul LDS. keep proselytizing and increase you bank account!
Half a billion a year for sending idiot kids into the country -- NOT BAD! AND it's all TAX EXEMPT--- BEAUTIFUL!
It truly amazes me the ignorant comments that so many people place on these areas when it comes to religion in general but more so the LDS religion. The 'white man's responsibility". Seriously? You truly have no idea of how many members world-wide there are that are not 'white'. It is the responsibility of ANY person to find truth and understanding about this life and when you find it, it is still your responsibility to share it. Better look up what a 'cult' is. At one time, I guess it could be said that the followers of Jesus formed a 'cult' and He was their leader. sigh.. There are 10 million plus members of this great Gospel and growing faster than any other religion could have imagined in less than 200 years. Why? Because truth invites and endures. I"m so sorry you are so far into bitterness that you can't understand that. Best of luck to you in that.
Actually Seventh Day Adventists (along with other churches) grew faster than Mormons. A common misconception.
Also, not even close to 10 million are active, church attending mormons. Most do not attend.
I've studied thisreligion for 35 years. I've known many LDS folks over the years.
.....and? Don't leave us hangin'
Sterngard...
"I would expect better from a church whose founder was in flight of the law. Something like humility."
You mean Chirst right?
Being a LDS member and being Japanese. I stand by my religion. I am a convert into the church. But even more so the point would be is that our Missionary is deciding to stay to help these people that have nothing anymore. Elderly people that have lived in their town for years, kept memories for their younger generation to remember them, lost loved ones that may never be found. Shame on you. What are you doing to help these people? Have you donated money to Red Cross and charity? Given up your Venti Caramel Frap, Even given $1.00? I have. Maybe you should look at the pictures of the faces of the people and think what if it was you? Open your wallet not your mouth!!!
That is very presumptuous of you to assume he hasn't donated any money.
It is also very Mormon of you to brag about your donating.
Wasn't it jesus who chastised the Pharisees for bragging about their righteousness???
Wow Jeff 3202189, I really do feel sorry for you. You just can't help yourself, can you? So much bitterness ....
if god wants this nieve young boy in such danger for any reason at all, lets consult the bible and read JOB.
cruel joke.
I would ask you a question... Who are you to tell God what he wants and not? Dangerous ground in my humble opinion.
Wasn't Job rewarded 7-fold for his ordeal and unwavering faith?
I've lived in Japan and seen Mormans doing their thing. While I am actually not a fan of their prostelyzing, I admire his courage and determnination to stick in out when so many others are leaving. Good for him!
Saving souls, really? Another would say his mission is destroying them, yes?
It's unfortunate you feel that way.
It isn't a matter of 'feeling' it is one of 'perception'
So, do you tell your kids that you will hunt them down and disembowel them if they ever reveal the 'Temple Secrets?'
Do you tell your daughter that the only way she can enter heaven is if her husband calls her "Temple Name?"
You are barbaric morons who should receive NO tax exemption for your horrid cult.
Ed-1131119. I'm so sorry that you truly don't have an understanding or a respect for God and the 'sacred' ordanances that have been performed since the beginning of time. They aren't a 'secret' and anyone can learn of them.. but you have to be worthy to do so. Simply as that. Just as the Temples of old, those who were worthy could enter. A thief, rapist, murderer, lier, etc... would never had been allowed in those temples nor are they modern times, either. By calling us 'barbaric', you are calling the Lord as such. He organized His church with Prophets, Apostles, deciples (who were also missionaries and went out by two, just like in today). Christ taught compassion, patience, charity, service, love, and all thing of righteous behavior. The LDS CHURCH epitomizes everything He taught. It so sad that you are so 'angry' over a religion you have no understanding of. Even a person of a Chrstian understanding of another church would not (should not) have the type of animosity that you hold. Look inside yourself first before you start criticizing a faith that is 10 million strong and growing rapidly. The harvesters have been let loose to harvest. Where will you land? The wheat or the tares?
Laurie,
When you say the murderers and rapists aren't worthy to enter the temple, shouldn't you also include people who drink coffee and tea?
Mr. Hiltbrand, how are you going to get instructions from God when you become an elder yourself? I wonder if you already have. Perhaps they come from the same source as everyone else: common sense.
One mans common sense is another's still small voice.
@Bill - Being a missionary, he is already an Elder.
I know he is there for the best reason. We are all God's children and he takes care of all of us even through Elder Hiltbrand. Thanks to his faith and loyalty to his mission. We need so much more people like him.
Hi mom
i love you!
We can learn a lot from the quietly religious Japanese. They don't need American missionaries.
125000 disagree with you. You are right however... we can learn a lot from Japanese and all other cultures.
Chris, not sure what your first sentence means. Please clarify.
There are 125,000 members of the LDS persuasion in Japan. That's what Chris' first sentence means.
Additionally, not all of the LDS Missionaries in Japan are Americans. Many are from Japan, as well as other countries across the globe.
I served an LDS mission in Asia.
Percentage of active Mormon church members for all Asian countries is the lowest for the whole world. Only about 15-25% are actually active members who go to church (in Hong Kong, where I served, it's actually less). Most others don't care one bit about church. Asians simply do not get Christianity, especially Mormonism, and usually resent it. They usually got baptized after 1 to 3 weeks and immediately went inactive, never going back. Some have only been to church once in their life.
So actually, it's not 125,000, it's more like 18,700 to 31,000. Get your facts straight ignorant Utah Mormons.
Let me clarify my last comment.
Why do Asians, for the most part, resent Christianity and Mormonism? Because their missionaries often come across as arrogant, self-righteous, western, know-it-all @!$%#s that try and shove their beliefs down everyone's throat.
This kid, although naive to the max, seems like one of the few exceptions and seems like a real good kid.
Oh for crying out loud, Jeff, get over it. Your bitterness and resentment is clear in the irrelevant focus of your comments. The membership statistics of the Mormons are of little consequence. You probably ought to go on with your life and stop complaining about the Mormon faith on a message board that is relating a story of hope in a tragedy, as you come across as more ugly and spiteful than any of the Mormons. I would certainly rather share a conversation with this positive young man than to be in the presence of the vitriol that you seem to be filled with.
If membership statistics are of little consequence, then why do mormons always brag about them?
Jeff , I have never heard of anyone bragging down here in the Southern States.. actually we are grateful for our members.. and this isn't about membership statistics it's about the tragedy in Japan and what happened to their people and their country.. and ask yourself this how woud you feel if you were there and lost everything you had.. it could happen here in the United States.. just a thought.
Jeff, the bigger question is why are you so concerned with the actions of Mormons, and why do you choose to lump all of them into one endless, generalized complaint on the comment section of a barely-relevant news story? I clicked on this story because I wanted to read something positive about the disaster in Japan and take part in the conversation, and instead I have to wade through the rantings of the Jeff show. I get that you no longer subscribe to the religion; would you like a certificate or an award? Your un-Mormon proselyting is far more annoying than Mormon missionaries could ever be, so how about you turn that energy somewhere else and try contributing something positive to the world instead of inundating this comment section with your pent up frustration at your former faith.
I am always amazed by the caustic comments evoked by a story about Mormons. Do stories about Catholics or Southern Baptists or atheists produce the same?
Luke 21 has something to say about this: 12 . . . they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, . . . for my name’s sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Times like this we need a lot of faith promoting testimonies. Appreciation of what we've got, of other peoples' survival, their courage, their selfless motivations to do good and to help is something we can thank the Lord for. This is indeed a very positive news to all of us.
The Japanese are "quietly religious" because basically they're not religious at all.
You do not need US Missionaries, but your are taking US Help anyway...God forgive YOU.
The survivors of the Rape of Nanking and the Bataan Death March and the Comfort Women of the Phillipines might disagree with you. Japan has a long history of being anything but religious.
Just a thought Jeff. Watch that new tv show "Millionaire" then go do something good/nice for someone you think needs it. It can really change your life and how you see others if you'll allow it too. Good Luck! "It works if you work it."
PS Those Missionaries could use a good cold drink of water from you the next time they visit your door and it's free too!!
OH I forgot : I'm so proud of you Kevin and all those missionaries around the world. Your courage to face those slammed doors and keep trying is almost beyond my understanding. Fortunantly for me and my husband and after dozens of visits over the years to my front door from LDS missionaries, I finally listened and at the age of 58 my husband and I were baptised! (I was a inactive Southern Baptist ministers daughter)!! Now at age 67 we are proud LDS members and attend the Washington DC temple regularly. We were taught not to argue about our faith but to read the Bible and Book of Mormon and pray and ask for ourselves if the the things we read were true. To Kevins mother: Did you have a missionary son in the DC, Virginia area. Your son's last name sounds so familar!! I am praying for all of you and all the japanes people. Jeff, you are in my prayers too!
As a proud and thankful grandmother living in Pocatello, Idaho I want to thank you for your time and care in writting this article. The article was well written and especially brought comfort to a prayerful concerned family about our Patrick. It was so good to read his comments, especially coming from a little safer place than where his experiences occured. There truly is a God and he loves us. Thanks again for your kindness in dealing with our family.
Except for the roughly 200,000 or so poor Japanese who suffered unspeakable deaths? Do you think the survivors beleive that God loves them?
200,000? Really? Apparently you're referring to more than this one event.
There's always people suffering somewhere. I think she was expressing thankfulness that her grandson was ok. I DON'T think that means the tragedy of the Japanese is lost on any of us. And especially on someone with a grandson there.
She's probably forgotten more than you'll ever learn and if she wants to express that there truly is a God and he loves us then I'd say she's earned the right. But great job in telling that grandmother what for. You're a quality human being.
To Patrick's family, he sounds like a young man who truly wants to help people. No matter what his religious beliefs, he is an example for humanity. It sounds like you are all very proud of Patrick. As a human being, so am I. Great work Patrick! Help others and stay safe.
A wonderful response, Mrs. JaNeal Buchanan. Ignore those who criticize. "Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them." Matthew 7:20. The fruits of your grandson's efforts are helpful and good and match the second great commandment of loving thy neighbor, Matthew 22:39.
Jason, thanks for the correction. I meant roughly 20,000 dead or missing souls. But I still stand behind my comments. The mourning for the poor Japanese, who perished is fresh and continues. No one can possibly know what God's will is, nor should we proselytize during this very sad time. Doing so seems insensitive, especially for the survivors who are trying to get their lives back on track. They need massive amounts of supplies, water, food, shelter. The priority right now is basic survival, not religion.
Not arguing what their needs are or what God's will is. Just pointing out that a Newsvine thread isn't going to send supplies to the Japanese but it can be a place to express thankfulness that a loved one is ok, especially when the article was about your loved one. So it is quite sad you felt the need to shoot down someone's grandmother here with your "facts". Out of respect, I digress on this issue and just say this was a nice article. A small bit good news when there is not so much lately.
JM, first off we all can know God's will, though we might not agree with what it means.
And yes they need massive amounts of supplies, water, food, and shelter, but if you have ever had any survival training then you know that in fact the most important thing in a critical survival event is the Positive Mental Attitude; which most people draw from either philosophy or religion, but supporting those things in people's lives is as important as anything else. Without it living after such disaster is without reason; at worst, while you can give people food, you can't make them eat it. People's emotional stability is fundamental to their recovery, and as you have pointed out the loss of 20,000 people is a lot of sorrow and misery to overcome.
Jason and Eric, thank you for your civility. I am happy for Grandma that her grandson survived. But, how can she say that "God loves us" in the face of such a deplorable massacre? This is not an appropriate time nor place to speak nonsense.
JM, if there is a God why would he change the world? if when we die we join him, why if he loves us would he stop men from dieing? the statement "God loves us" applies when we are saved from sorrow and when we are not, for these are all thing which we experience in a world that he allowed to happen. if he did not love us surely we would not be here.
JM California, Some people believe that God loves us, but is allowing humans to find their own way. Humans have always wanted to be independent of God, without a protective 'garden' or a protective guardian, and now he's letting them be independent. Although people may die, proving faithful in death is what Jesus did, and is remembered by God. I'm not Mormon, but I know the gist of the Bible and why people believe it. It's because it teaches overcoming obstacles and tragedy in the expectation of a greater hope. I'm sure every Mormon missionary is inspired even more to provide hope 'as are' all other missionaries. I'm not one to say hope is a bad thing in this tragedy, even though I don't like them knocking on my door.
That being said, God accepts all people of every tongue and nation. Mormons have not been as colorblind as the Bible asks his followers to be. In early Rome, ethiopians, egyptians, and all other races and national groups were united in faith. In contrast Mormons excluded races due to the popular slave traditions around them. Pre-Christ when slavery is spoken of in the Bible, it includes all races as possible slaves, and outlines treatment and benefits such as land ownership and compensation. A slave was like a long term employee with household and ownership benefits. In Christs era, Jesus spoke against traditional discrimination, and included gentiles in his fold, and all those who were oppressed. Oh well...keep hope alive.
JM - I am not of the Mormon faith, but I can tell you this: Your comments are the ones that are out of line. As a believer in God, Patrick's grandmother was expressing her beliefs. You are calling her beliefs nonsense. You are asking how someone could say "God loves us." in the face of a disaster such as this. Let me ask you something: What gives you the impression that God must have caused all those lives to be lost? He may have set things in motion, but we as people decide where we will live.
David W.-2123493 said:
"He may have set things in motion, but we as people decide where we will live."
WHAT!? So god didn't start the disaster or did he? Make up your mind. You don't even know what you believe. So god just "sets things in motion" and it's our fault if we decide to live there? You're insane.
David W.-2123493 said: "Your comments are the ones that are out of line"
I am so sick of Christians crying foul anytime someone challenges their beliefs like they are victims. You're damn straight he was calling her beliefs nonsense! I think your god is BS and I don't care if you're offended! We have the right to call religion on its BS and "hate" on it just as much as they have the right to spread it. Deal with it.
Whoa... atheistic jihad!! Round up all those unenlightened ones who fail to see your glorious light of random something-from-nothingness, and put them in their place! Unleash your sacred profanity, so that its offense may give glory to chaos. Remove from them the comfort of their beliefs, enlist them in your doubts, so your own opinion may be vindicated! It is your mission! Atheistic religious jerk.
(btw - I am a Christian, but not a Mormon.)
If you're afraid of atheists, you're a pussy. Are you afraid of kittens as well?
You think it's fear. Huh. You're one of the biggest religious nutjobs here. If I was an atheist, I would be embarrassed to be represented by such as you.
Um, i don't believe in a religion. How does that make me a religious nutjub? You aren't afraid of atheists, that's right, Jesus will come kill us won't he? I forgot, my mistake.
Jeff:
Your intitled to your beliefs---- and u seem to hold fast to them (hate, distruction, corruption, critism, etc)
Just the same---Others are entitled to theirs (do you have a right or privilege others dont)? that gives you a license to be so Cruel.... ? Unlike U Jeff---People who believe in Christ(CHRISTIANS) (have the truth) and know it--- and they know that that Truth will set you free. They also hope in things unseen----and they know that praying for you---may or may not save your soul one day because you have a Free-Will; a right to choose (it is obvious what you have chosen). People like you are written about throughout the bible.... The People's HEARTS WILL WAX COLD---and they will Be Lovers of themselves....
Christians hold firm to the knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and there is no other way to the Father, but through the Son (Jesus). It is my hope that you will one day know Him as your Lord and Saviour----because I guarantee one day you will know Him---(or at least acknowledge Him) because you will Kneel before Him, (every knees shall bow) and (every tongue) Confess He is the Son of God (that Jesus is Lord); better to be accounted a sheep, and be led to slaughter in this world, then to burn in Hell for Eternity.
I am not a Mormon (and just for the record---Mormon's......are not Christians!) they are Mormon! just like Buddists are Buddists, and Muslims are Muslims, and Catholics are Catholics... WHY dont people understand that ??? Mormon's follow Joseph Smiths Teachings, and the Mormon Bible--- Mormon's believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers; and that there is no heaven or hell, they have special temples, and special rites of passage.... and they are promoted into levels of rewards; BASED ON SERVICE!!!! (missionary call) They are Mormons---
Although I am not Mormon, I have known many who are, or claimed to be, and had neighbors who were; and have been blessed by their servitude---but the Bible Says---: we are saved by Faith, not by Works... lest we boast. Glory be to God; for He is worthy of our Praise; Unto Him be the Glory forever, amen..... well that pretty much sums it up~ Oh---Wait! One last thing; it is His desire that Not One should perish, *(and that means u2 Jeff) but that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ....
So If there is anyone out there reading this---who wants to know Jesus, who wants to know the blessed assurance that Christians have, all you need to do is ----Confess your sins, Acknowledge Jesus is the Son of God, and Repent (turn away from) your sins, and you shall be saved.
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Let Go---and---Let God!!! He is amazing, and He the same yesterday, today, and forever. Never changing. Surrender your heart, and let Him in... It will change your life.
REALLY?? Deberah?? Just to clarify, Catholics are Christian, so are Mormons!! We believe in Christ, just like Methodists, Lutherans, Penecostals, etc.!!!
Jeff if you are trying represent Atheists then you're doing it poorly. A grandmother makes a nice comment about an article about HER grandson and people use it as a soapbox to oppose her for some reason. It's too bad it is so hard to find decency and respect anymore. If anyone had thought about turning Atheist, people like you would turn them away as you defend Atheism like an immature child, turning it into another religious hate group. There's people like you standing up for it, there's books on it, there's meetings - just start taking up tithes because you got yourself a religion.
It's like people who collect stamps are practicing a hobby. But NOT collecting stamps is not a hobby is it? Well normally it wouldn't be unless you have groups of people talking about not collecting stamps, books written about NOT collecting stamps, people standing up for it, meetings, etc.. Suddenly, NOT stamp collecting is beginning to become some peoples' hobby. Extremists are in every faith (or supposed lack thereof) and I subscribe to NONE of their views. So in that regard - nice job. Your hateful, immature remarks (in response to a grandmother's post, no less) probably just turned more people away from the paradox of YOUR Atheism. Change your name from Jeff to Jeff Junior or Janet because a man you are not.
Only an immature person can take entire groups of Christians and other religions and judge them all. Apparently your brain can't process the fact that every single person is different and there are good people to be found in all faiths, even Atheism. This was the place for someone to express thankfulness but you try to take it over and turn it into hate with your own agenda. Your comments are out of place and attempt to make religious people feel like we're still in high school being bullied by some punk. I can't stop you from posting your crap, but I can point out the fact that your nothing but an immature troll...which...well your comments do speak for themselves.
A tree is known by the fruit it bears.
As for death, it comes for us all. We ALL have a ticket and are standing in line. Part of life is death. There is no blame here to lay at God's feet or anyone else's. Where is God when little children suffer? Where are YOU when little children suffer? It doesn't take a God to help your neighbor.
Jeff,
One thing I find interesting is that atheist and christians really are in the same boat. You may think christians are delusional and think "magically". That they believe in something that you think is mythical fantasy. A belief that is based of "faith" and not fact.
Just as a Christian that would adhere to their beilefs with a passionate devotion you do the same thing. For a christian finds answers where you think there are none.
You ascribe to the same certainty to calm you inner anxiety of the unknown. You have just decided that you certainity is Nothing.
You are convinced none of those things exist and there is nothing. I find christians to be much more open to thought and reality outside the factual box. If nothing else our history as humans has pointed out our limited capabilities of thought. We used to think the earth was Flat... wrong, We used to think the sun revolved around the earth... wrong. To believe there is something greater and bigger that is beyond our human comprehensive should be automatically understood as it has been shown through out history. To believe the only truth is what can be immediate seen or proven appears to be ignorant.
To have faith in a greater concept than the apparent tangible seems to be a much more intelligent position.
Deborah,
How did you know I believe in corruption and destruction? Deborah, it doesn't help your cause to make generalizations and to throw large groups of people (e.g., mormons and atheists) under an umbrella of stereotypes and accusations and then cry foul when people do the same to you and your group of people. Jesus hated hypocrites.
I have never thought I had more right to free speech than any other person. Everyone can disagree with me. When did I ever say they could not???
Jason Wason,
If you read carefully, my comments were not the ones attacking the comments of the grandmother. I was simply saying that JM California had a right to say what he said and we're not intimidated by Christians who want to accuse us of persecuting them through disagreement.
This is an open forum man, if you can't take it because it offends your tender spots, then don't read the comments. Let me explain to you why religion is an issue for atheists. Simply because we are tired of religious institutions (I emphasize institutions because not all religious people do this) are trying to force their beliefs and dogmas into our lives, our laws, and our governments through legislation. We feel this does harm. We believe in separation of church and state and are trying to fight back by making our voices heard against religion.
Let me make it very clear that I applaud this young man's desire to do good. I never challenged that. I may think his approach and outlook is a little naive, but his motivation is in the right place. The world needs more people like this boy. I never once criticized his grandmother. I disagree with her beliefs but never made an attack on her character. Where are you getting this from?
Your approach, however, is to attack Ad Hominem, cry bloody murder, and never actually argue the point.
As far as me blaming people or god or whatever, I never blamed anyone, including god because it doesn't exist. It was nature. I am simply pointing out that these people believe god did it and they don't even know why. Is it ok with you Jason? Do I have your permission to disagree with people?
I am NOT trying to convert people to atheism. I could care less if more people were atheist. All atheists want is religious people to leave them alone, stop trying to force Stone Age laws into our lives, churches, please pay your taxes, and let us get on with our lives. The only reason atheism even exists as a label and as a position is because religious folk make it an issue and so we have to stand up and defend what we believe is right.
Christians and Mormons, however, do want converts. If you want more people to be saved by Jesus by being Christian, then BE CHRISTIAN! Be an example with your actions. The religious people posting comments here (excluding grandmother and a few others), come to brag about how righteous and superior their religion and belief system is, making sure everyone knows how special and pure they are. Sorry, you're not special. You're the same as everybody else. Good people (like this young missionary) do good things because their nature is good, not because of superstition. Bad people do bad things because their nature is bad. That's why you have both kinds of people in both religion and in atheism.
If someone wants to be religious fine, but stop trying to run society by taking birth control out of the Savon, taking the rights to marry away from gays, stifling stem cell research, forcing creationism into schools, and not paying taxes from money made by your businesses, er churches.
Jason, if you think I'm a big meanie jerk-face, fine. I'm really not trying to impress you. Neither am I trying to impress other atheists.
Sir I don't care WHO your comments were attacking. This wasn't the place to place to do it and common sense would have told you that if you had any. You're more concerned with rights than with respect which demonstrates the immaturity of a little boy going around kicking people in the shins.
And you do persecute Christians. Your foul language, name calling and sorry attitude shows that. No one was attacking Atheism before YOU interjected. And attacking me by saying I can't take it? Take what, little boy? I'm not the one jumping on people who were not addressing you or your belief anyway.
You like to proclaim Atheism is not a religion precisely because you can spread it WITHOUT worrying about separation of church and state. I never said a thing about you not "applauding" the guy's desire to do good. Just that if you had a shred of common sense you could just say something like "glad to hear he's ok" and maybe save your brand of fire and brimstone for a more appropriate forum. Not that you have to. Oh it's your right to say what you want here. Not that doing so would pretty much paint a picture of your intelligence but it is your right.
What point is it you're accusing me of NOT arguing? Again, just trying to point out how you've kind of high-jacked the conversation with your own points YOU want to argue. Accusing me of trying to take away your permission to argue is a pretty cheap argumentative statement as well. Argue with people in a more appropriate place is the point. And how do you know who does or doesn't know why they believe in God?
"We believe in separation of church and state and are trying to fight back by making our voices heard against religion." Sounds like an attempt at conversion to me. Who goes around fighting against Atheists? When someone believes in God, their not going around actively tying to tear down Atheism.
The religious people here weren't picking on you. YOU came out swinging first. Do THEY have rights? Do WE have YOUR permission to disagree? As far as I'm aware no one here has resorted to foul language and name calling except YOU. Religious people are everywhere and it sounds more to me like YOU can't take it because it offends YOUR tender spots.
I don't think you're trying to impress anyone because you've realized with your inability to be even a little bit mature, it's impossible. You're more concerned with yourself, your rights, and forcing your ideas down peoples' throats much like you accuse others of doing. You're a narcissist who high-jacked a thread that was NOT about you or atheism but oh, now it is. Well done. Bravo.
Jason,
Wow. Okay then. I can see I have provoked you quite a bit and that you are pretty upset. That's good, this has been productive. But I can see that now it has gotten to the point of pretty much going nowhere.
I really don't get why Christians get so upset. I mean, we atheists can be real @!$%#s sometimes (well, at least I can, most atheists are nice, believe it or not). But if you really believe in god, and that he's just going to come back and wipe us non-believers out with a huge fireball or something, why do you care so much about what we say? Wouldn't you be thinking to yourself something like "oh well, that guy sure is gonna get it when jesus comes back," and then just go on your merry way, shrugging it off?
Why get so mad? Just get your lawn chair, head up to the mountain and wait for the rapture. We nonbelievers are screwed anyways right?
I think what it boils down to is insecurity. Insecurity about your beliefs. You're afraid of doubt, and questions. You're afraid of people questioning because it might cause you to question.
I know Jason, I know you're going to come back with something like " YOUR insecure about YOUR ATHEISM, little boy! That's why you post so much hate here!"
All I can say is, you're right. I am insecure, but not about my atheism, but rather how I feel religious institutions sometimes negatively affect society and keep scientific and social progress back. That's why I voice my insecurity. Not ashamed to admit it. And it really offends people, oh well.
Jason, I assume you are a Christian.
If you are a Christian, please go live your religion by loving your enemies, forgiving men their trespasses, turning the other cheek, and judge not lest ye be judged.
You will probably respond with "YOU go live YOUR religion by bringing suffering and destruction and shin-kicking to the world you big meanie!"
Ok Jason, I will.
It's been swell,
Jeff
Jeff, freedom of speech is in short supply. Freedom of thought is nearly extinct. So, too, is basic deductive and conductive reasoning.
Lucky for Patrick to have survived a naturally occurring destructive phenomena. I hope that he can continue being the good person that he is, but that he is also able to exercise his freedom to doubt, freedom to learn, and freedom to explore our wondrous universe beyond any limiting organized religion.
A person of faith is unable to understand why evangelizing that "God loves us all" is nonsense. It contradicts what terrible wraths, against "His children" (allegedly caused by God) are written throughout the Bible, and occur regularly. I find all attempts to explain this contradiction to be convoluted, unbelievable and offensive to common sense. God killed his only Son. God will "inspire the LDS leadership", but He won't inspire 20,000 Japanese souls, et all, to immediately seek higher ground! I assume many believers have God's will, God's intentions, God's plan for us, etc., etc, all figured out. This is evidence of human ignorance, speculation and wishful thinking, at it's worst.
Consider this: No one has ever seen God. No one has ever met God. Yet, some choose to speculate about His will, His purpose for us, why terrible things happen, etc. This is shear arrogance (or ignorance).
To know God, if such a concept is possible, would require significant knowledge of His creation. We humans are facing a huge dilemma with traditional religions because we have learned that our universe is extraordinarily massive. There are billions of galaxies, planets and stars. Indeed, we have only peered into this reality in recent times. There are more objects out there than all the grains of sand on our precious Earth...all allegedly produced by the Creator. This unfolding reality should humble us all and should force us to rethink. If there is a Creator, it is far more complex and mysterious than our human oversimplifications. We are microbes on a speck of sand. How can we deduce anything about a Creator when we know only about our "microbial" existence? It is for this reason why I can't stand it when someone thinks they know God, His intentions, his creations, etc. We don't, we can't.
Please, I am not trying to convert anyone. I am just sharing some food for thought and broaden your minds, beyond the comforting boundaries of organized religions.
I applaud anyone who helps out someone else, especially if such actions are discrete and without reward. That is a noble act and doesn't require any religious institutionalization, just good parenting.
Jeff, of course it's going nowhere. Christians get upset? YOU are the one upset here. Ok, maybe I am too. But haven't you realized by now that you can't change another's beliefs? Its a losing a battle and it's much more productive to find ways to get along.
There's no reason to criticize when others are upholding. And there's every reason for restraint and accepting that we are all different and that's ok. This was the place for praise, not criticism. But you turned it into your own hall of preaching Atheism. You've made huge assumptions about groups of people and for that, I give you some kind of credit. There's so many individuals that need consideration. Atheists too.
No, Jesus isn't going to wipe people out. I do not believe the Bible is perfect, a fact book, a history book, a text book or an undeniable record of things past. It's all they had. There were no video cameras or recorders. But it's worth considering since it was written down. To refuse it is to refuse possible fact.
I'm not mad about your arguments about it except that a grandmother should be able to make statements of gratitude to God for her grandson without it turning into a jihad. I'll turn the other cheek until someone assaults my widowed grandmother and then we have a problem. Christian I am, but a carpet to wipe your feet on I am not.
There are more than ten commandments in the old testament. Christ just told us that the training wheels are off and we can surely decide for ourselves what is right and wrong. Atheists are welcome. But please don't judge people when they simply want to express thankfulness that their loved ones are ok within their own religious beliefs.
JM - I am sorry for judging you. After reading your after thoughts, that should say enough. I think you have one of those minds who get things, and is so rare. I therefore apologize for my original thoughts.
Words on a screen cannot communicate truth at all. But please give humans some credit. After all no one knows what is to be, and hopefully in the mean time we can allow widows and grandmothers to have their say. I certainly apologize and give my credit, for what it it worth, to you and yours.
We do have so much awesome things to discover. And I so love those who can find it. I refuse to place an incontestable value on our lives. I think it should be ok to express yourself without others "standing up for their rights". We need more innovation and less people telling us it's not ok to think for ourselves.
If God is "out there" maybe we will discover Him one day. In any case, we should hold the highest respect for one another. Regardless, I hope we learn to love one another.
Dude, nobody "assaulted" your grandmother.
JM California simply stated that his/her belief was contrary to grandma's, innocently and politely enough. People countered JM and I countered them.
It's a comments section, a forum, whatever you want to call it, they're just words.
Nobody got assaulted. No harm done.
Thanks, Jason.
Religion and Politics are difficult topics. But, I must say that I have learned something about the Mormons and it has been extraordinarily interesting to read a little about the culture.
Jeff-3202189, you are suspended for a day for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.
Don't troll all people of a certain religion, please. Thanks!
I think it is a wonderful story and we should all be grateful that even though people died, lots of people lived. Some people have commented that Mormons are mean and pushy. Granted some are,but all LDS members in japan are accounted for and all of are missionary's too. Dose that not tell you people some thing.
We are a good and kind people. We believe that our purpose on earth is to help and care for people in gods name. That's what I believe. And a elderly member of my faith wants to share a story about her grandson who is by the way not getting paid or anything to take the rest of his teen age life and the beginning of his 20's to sever in Gods name. I think she has a right to share this story with all of you. And not be judged so harshly.
Jeff -
It's interesting to note that you do have it in you to make reasoned and articulate comments, yet more often you come off as a zealot who is trying to cram your beliefs down other peoples' throats. Taking the position that it's only reasonable to not believe in God, you're not demonstating the voice of reason very well.
You seem to take it on faith that there is nothing that can't be discovered by science... and I take it on faith that there are powers far beyond humanity's capability to grasp. I think it takes quite a bit of faith to belive that simple components, without outside guidance, can be self-organizing to the point of bringing about the complexity of life, and minds that can ask questions about their own existence. I don't believe that can happen randomly; apparently you do. Both points of view can be described as "religious" - or at least they are manifestations of decisions about religion.
I use soft words and phrases like "seem to" and "apparently" because I want to avoid one of the more annoying attributes of your arguments - that you think you know all about what I and others believe. That we think God is going to wipe you out this way or that, etc. Don't tell me what I believe. You don't have that right. I also believe I do not have the right to judge you. In fact, I am in greater peril than you if I do judge you, because judgment is God's alone. I can and must judge actions, but I may not try to judge souls.
You clearly have had bad experiences with organized religion, perhaps during your own mission or whatever. You might be surprised how much I would agree with some of your observations. For myself, I don't want to reject all that's good and right because it is misrepresented by some misguided (or even malicious) people. I'm afraid your bitterness is making it difficult for you to be objective, and you lash out at whatever looks like what made you angry. I do believe it's possible to be a rational, sensible atheist - however much it saddens me. I don't think one can arrive at such a state while in the throes of anger.
Religion and faith are not the same thing. It's possible to be religious about many things. Jesus was nailed to the cross at the insistence of very religious people. I would rather be thought of as faithful. If my faith causes me to be religious about the right things, the result is better than if I try to bolster my faith by converting others with religious fervor. I suspect that you believe the latter describes religious people in general. Unfortunately, you can easily point to many examples that seem to support that case. They tend to be the ones making the most noise. Please consider that there are many who are quietly living their faith, hoping to win people to Christ rather than beating them over the head with Him.
I need to apologize for the tone of my first responses to you. I was annoyed and responded accordingly. In one of your posts, you said "If you are a Christian, please go live your religion by loving your enemies, forgiving men their trespasses, turning the other cheek, and judge not lest ye be judged." I am trying to write this in that spirit - not because I want to win an argument, but because I hope you can find your way to peace. Whatever that means for you.
But there is evidence that "simple components, without outside guidance, can be self-organizing to the point of bringing about the complexity of life...." Also, it is very unlikely that "there are powers far beyond humanity's capability to grasp": it is the consequences of the interactions among the various simple forces we know to exist that are largely beyond our "grasp," which last I take to mean understand well enough for predicting.
Athiests do not resort to "it's done by a higher power" when they actually should be saying "I don't know."
"And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever."
-God
"If we don’t halt population growth with justice and compassion, it will be done for us by nature, brutally and without pity - and will leave a ravaged world."
~ Dr. Henry W. Kendall.
It's nature fighting back. God has nothing to do with it. The fact that this kid survived is just as miraculous as those others who survived with him. I do commend him for sticking it out and staying to help, but remember, there are those who are heading into the radiant unknown to help too and they are not from any given faith. They are just people helping people without the Godly tie.
Although I agree with you that nature will fight back. I'm curious as to the chain of events starting in population growth that cause a 9.0 in the ocean? Nature is reactive, but not communally sapient.
Eric, and you 'know' this how exactly? Seems anyone who believes in a magical super hero cannot rule out a sentient universe, eh?
While I agree we need to stop population growth I fail to see what it has to do with this. Nature does not fight back, things just happen in nature be it the dynamics of weather or the dynamics of plates. Yes some of natures "actions" cause "reaction" but there is no conciseness in it.
They way that we have chosen to live, in that I mean how we have tried to adjust our environment to fit "our" needs, is why nature is doing such things at an accelerated rate. Nature is all connected. It's the proverbial "butterfly affect" that most don't seem to believe in. Our continued pollution changes the atmosphere, along with the dwindling of resources due to over population, while by doing that changes things on land. My own weird question has to do with oil. Most know that oil helps lubricate and cool our engines. What if it's real purpose is to do the same for the planet? This may be why we are seeing more eruptions and earthquakes around the planet. If this is so, how could we even correct our mistake. It isn't like we did any research before we started pumping the stuff out of the ground. Also, by the time we would have even thought of doing a research study, we were already too dependant on it. At that point we just wouldn't care as we would have to give up the luxury of oil to save the planet. We're too arrogant for that.
Wow..such hatred from all of you. This story was intended to show something uplifting in times of misery. And all of you can only find something to hate about. Whether you agree with the religion or not is irrelevant. Thats not the point of the story. Oh, and the comment about the "White Man", may I remind you that his companion is Japanese. And there are many many missionaries out there in the world who are not white. Get your facts straight, at the very least, before you start your hate-mongering.
Patrick, To some, your conclusions are quite offensive. Where's the "hate" that you're describing? Your basic presumption is simply wrong. Many disagree with foreign missionaries that attempt to persuade and convert people from their own religion. But I DO NOT hate, nor do the other viner's posts suggest any hatred.
I'm w/ you!!!!!!!!!! What is with all this hate toward Americans and Christianity??? GOD help you!! This is about a survival story and what this man wants to do to help ... an admirable desire considering he could die or at the very least, endanger his health in the process. Does his personal beliefs and faith taint this? I don't think so! I applaud you for your ability to want to genuinely help!
Please show me where the "hate" is? This story is about a young, brainwashed missionary, who was one lucky kid. Hooray, he survived! But what about all of the victims?
If this young man really wants to help, he might try joining one of many numerous relief efforts that are digging through the debris, arranging donations, and or bringing in food and supplies. This is what is most needed...right now.
Please, if any of you out there want to help, a painless donation of $10.00 can be added to your mobile phone. Simply text to 90999 and type REDCROSS in the message. Thank you for caring.
JM,
As a former missionary and current member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints myself, I resent your conclusion that Patrick is "brainwashed". What is wrong with doing something for the faith in which you believe. Was it not Jesus Christ himself who gave the command to all his disciples to bring his teachings to the world, to all who would receive them. People are allowed to form their own opinions regarding the gospel of Jesus Christ, but please do not belittle my faith or my family. I don't troll on sites or stories that you hold dear. I agree that we should do what we can to help the Japanese people, as you stated in your plea to donate to the Red Cross. Patrick is just doing what he can do in Japan.
Only because they found need to over mention that he was a Mormon and that it was Gods work. We didn't need to hear the religious belief part. It had no bearing. It could have said nothing more than a kid on missionary work decided to stay and help the people of Japan, not because of a religious belief, but rather because they needed all the help they could get. People helping people does not need to include a religion.
Brett...
I think the "brainwashed" stereotype comes from the micromanagement perception of the LDS Church. I would have no problem if the "good-doer" attitude of the faith was used for just that, and not thrown in the face of those of us that are not LDS. There are many of us in this world that serve, take care of ourselves and our bodies, care deeply for others, and love our families dearly without the complicit instruction of the multitude of LDS manuals. I'm sorry that the brainwashed thing insults you, but for those of us looking in from the outside, that's exactly how the religion seems. Take note of the state in which I reside......very surrounded by this topic!
Brett, most successful religious indoctrinations begin with very young and malleable minds, for a reason. Does that offend you?
Whenever I read a great story, it is always followed by negative comments... What is wrong with us!!!
Lori, there is something wrong with us all if we agree on every topic.
Amen brother! Democracy is awesome!
JM- I have been reading and re-reading the thread, I don't see where there is anything to disagree on in the original article. It talks about a young man who wants to help in any way he can but needs permission from those who are in authority to protect him since he is not with family. The same as you going to Japan and trying to give aid, say with the Red Cross, and not allowed to because your supervisor says it's too dangerous right now.
I am certain that relief efforts from The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints has given aid, supplies, counseling, and anything else necessary to sustain the survivors. That is what my offerings go to. Not to line the pockets of those in Authority, unlike some governments that are crying out for help. But that is for a whole 'nother thread. :-} As for helping to rebuild, I am absolutely sure that as soon as it is deemed safe groups of LDS and others will blend and do so. Unless anyone is wearing tags stating their affiliation with the LDS church, you will be hard pressed to label them.
Hello Catbirdkirby, I like your name.
I will try to keep this brief, but it is not my best skill.
When I made my comments, I was unaware that I was practically inside a church (or forum) full of LDS members. Had I realized, I would have reconsidered. This is akin to me entering a church and blabbing out to the congregation my contrary beliefs. Not the right place, I get it. Too late, obviously.
If you read my first comment, it was in regards to what strikes me as pure nonsense, i.e.:, "God loves us".
Her comment was offensive to my common sense, given that tens of thousands of human beings had just recently perished in a monstrous way. Their deaths, for most, were not swift. It must have been agonizing while they were crushed, saw their loved ones washed away, drowned and or froze to death. Many will never be properly buried or found. For the survivors, they are faced with complete loss. Some are too old to fully recover.
Yet, Grandma says, God loves us. I doubt this is what most Japanese are thinking. If Grandma was familiar with Ecclesiastes 3: 1-15, she might have remembered that there is a time a place for everything. "God loves us" is a religious point of view that, in my opinion, was insensitive and inappropriate to be proclaiming in this ocean of Japanese suffering and death.
JM, this may irk you but God does love us. He loves every single one of His children. He even loves the ones who died a painful tragic death. Death isn't a punishment. It's simply the end of earth life and it ended in drowning or being crushed for many people in Japan that day. It will end for you, too. Maybe painful and drawn out, maybe quick and easy. But either way, God loves us all. He loves the ones struggling to survive in Japan right now. He is encouragine (inspiring) many to help those left out in the cold. He loves the ones who were hustled out of harms way. He has other plans for them- other "missions" to fulfill before their earth life is over.
There is absolutely nothing wrong or insensitive about this grandmother saying God loves us at a time like this.
You know what, Carola? Why don't you put your money where your mouth is???
'He even loves the ones who died a painful tragic death.'
Got any kids you want to offer up for a painful and tragic death, you half-wit? This is exactly what I was talking about...your religion leads you to believe all kinds of ridiculous, self-destructive nonsense.
JeffMo what is your problem? Your statement lacks proper logical follow-through and is totally nonsensical.
AZresident-980468 you think our lives are run by a plethora of manuals?! Are you serious? Yes, we have several manuals. But all of them except one are lesson books. You know--like school textbooks with lessons in them to teach out of for Sunday School, etc. They are not "marching orders" as you are ridiculously implying. They give lessons to help us understand the scriptures and the Savior better. We are a lay ministry, all volunteers, no formal seminary graduates with teaching training. So all the teachers need some teaching resource to assist them in their various classes.
We do have 1 (one) manual that contains church policy. Nothing wrong with that. Is there a large organization of any kind that doesn't have a policy manual?
It is truly amazing how people take a nice news article and warp it for their own agenda. Like this Jeff guy and PM CA guy et al. Saying things like this missionary is "brainwashed." (I could say the same thing about your belief system.) Or saying things like his proselyting during a time like this is offensive when the article specifically said he wasn't and couldn't even if he wanted to. The whole gist of the article was about a young man who loves this people and wants to help them dig out of their tragic circumstances and rebuild their lives. Where do you people come off distorting the story? It's there in black and white.
It just goes to show how "brainwashed" you people are. There's a news story about a Mormon, so your knee jerks and you automatically just have to inject your prejudice into the comments and tear it down because in your "brainwashed" way of thinking, there are no good Mormons. I guess that's where you and I differ. I think there are atheists who are choice people and others also. And8* no matter what their religious or non-religious persuasion, I wouldn't speak the way you do.
Carola:
Easy to say from high ground.
All I can say is that if your faith allows for acts of compassion, reasonable incorporation of modern scientific discoveries, humility, honesty and truth...then you might be on the right track.
I remain amazed at the acid and vitriol which seems to be generated by any article which mentions "Mormons" in the least positive light. Those LDS members who respond aggressively, or even defensively, seem only to elicit further attacks.
If I may, I offer this view of the LDS picture of the universe and humanity's place in it: This earthly, mortal existence is only one, but vital step in an eternal process. As mortal beings, mankind is subject to the challenges, trials, opportunities and rewards of this life. These include the chance of violent death, deformity at birth, and varying degrees of personal capacity. In the Mormon faith, all of these are in keeping with God's plan for His children. It is how we respond to these things which define our character as His children. Just as I am vulnerable to the effects of another's choice to drive drunk, so am I vulnerable to the natural processes which operate in God's universe. The Mormon way of thinking is that God's love is demonstrated in His providing His children the opportunity to experience this growth and gain the knowledge available thereby. And, in the face of catastrophe, those who remain have the choice to render aid, to sacrifice in the care of others, or to criticize or complain from a safe seat.
To those who resent or are critical of the Mormon effort to proselytize, please keep in mind their rationale and intent: For active LDS, their faith is the foundation of their life choices. They find solace and comfort in the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and for most it is simply their desire to share the benefits of their faith with the rest of us. I know for a fact that nobody gets rich serving a mission or supporting a missionary, at least in the wealth of the world. You will also not find the LDS church leadership living high on the hog from tithes and offerings.
I hope this shed's some light on a sweet grandmother's statement of faith and hope.
This is what I truely love about the Mormon Church and the way it develops healthy human character....
Yeah Merrily, Joseph Smith embodied healthy human characteristics, if by healthy you mean dishonest, adulterous, greedy, megalomaniacal, and delusional. Healthy healthy! This kid Patrick doesn't know what the hell he is doing there, spreading the word...he's a kid who has had beliefs foisted upon him by people who should have nurtured his curiosity rather than extinguishing it with a petulant, immature worldview steeped in ignorance and intolerance. I do hope he remains safe, and that he has not been completely vaccinated from moments of clarity by mormon dogma.
Truthout -- Brigham Young (with FULL knowledge) ordered the slaughter of men women and children who were passing through Utah -- girls as young as 9.
Jeff, nobody forced Patrick to go on a mission. He had the choice to go or not. I served a mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and I loved every minute. I was not ever forced to go and had I wanted to I could have left at any time.
Ed, if you are referring to the Mountain Meadows Massacre, please do some research. Brigham Young actually ordered the people of the area to stand down and let the travelers through. The people in that area acted on their own and had no instruction from the leaders in Salt Lake City. In fact, when Brigham Young learned of the massacre he called the members in and spoke with them. Many of them were excommunicated and then the perpetrators were turned over to the law.
NIcely put Jeff!
Brandon,
I never said he was forced to go on a mission, so I'm not sure why you chose to us that as your rebuttal, rather than having criticizing me for attacking your prophet's credibility. Perhaps you know a lost cause when you see one?
The foisting of beliefs that I mention in my original post refers to his upbringing: within the confines of the mormon worldview by default of his family's subscription to the LDS church.
Very rarely do I read comment threads because of their negativity. I thought a human interest story would be fairly safe, boy was I wrong.
May I start by saying that religion was a huge part of the story. I too must be a bit naive but in my explorations of at least 6 countries I have yet to meet a missionary (humanitarian or evangelical) who wasn't hoping to enlighten others by sharing the hope that their religion offered. So I believe because of the nature of the story the grandmother was justified in expressing her religious opinion that God loves us. Nobody need take offense. It was simply her heart rejoicing. To feel the need to burst grandma's bubble because one feels that the focus should be only on the mourning and suffering seems a bit ungrateful for the lives that were saved and actually quite rude. If you had a friend or family member that you worried about for over 24 hours I would respect your right to express your gratitude however you saw fit (even a shake your booty dance in the end-zone).
I believe most people reading this story were looking for feelings of hope and gratitude. Sadly, if they read the comments that followed, they were exposed to some of the uglier side of human nature that the philosopher Thomas Hobbes warned us about (self-interest in case you didn't know).
I find I am motivated to do "good" more by friendly, loving banter than from ridicule. One would think that hearing about a young man who wants to go back into harm's way to help the people he has grown to love and care about would inspire more of us to offer donations of money, supplies, and service. But alas, some comments seem to have confused the purpose of a human interest story with their own self-interest. My prayer (yes I used a religious term) is the next time they post a comment they will at least be a little more sensitive to the family of those in the article. They may even have learned a thing or two about how to win friends and influence people.
Hopefully you have guessed that I'm proud to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon). Mormons are Christians (hence the name of our church). I do not feel my religion is a cult (if you do you might consider getting to know us better before you pass judgment on us). My children are taught to think for themselves and to find their own testimonies. Does that mean that I would not fight to keep them in my religion? As a mother, I will fight anything that I feel will harm my children. That is what moms are best at. But in the end I love them unconditionally. I also try to teach them to love and respect all people, to not seek out the differences in others but work to find common ground. To also look for the good in other people, other cultures, other religions (or NON-religions). Good can be found everywhere if we just look to find it. Which is why I loved this story-- it showed the GOOD of humanity (just think about the man who turned his car around to give the missionaries a ride). It was from one view point but it was about many survivors. Sadly tragedies happen everyday, some we cause, some others cause to happen to us, and then there are some that just happen. We have the choice to conquer the challenge presented or rollover and complain about it. Together we can help the people of Japan conquer this challenge. I pray they will be able to see the good in humanity, feel our love, and be strengthened by it.
Hmmmm seems the Japanese have a very healthy character -- they LOWER prices in stricken areas a very unamerican and unMormon thing.
They need not your horrid cult that promises to disembowel anyone who reveals 'Temple Secrets', no? Threatening little girls that way -- yeah what moral character!
Ed,
Exactly!
The Mormon religion is almost as comical and entertaining as the Catholics. Ignorant, unfair, elaborate and nonsensical. Oh boy, when can I join!
Ed,
Where oh where do you get your facts about the Temple and what goes on inside? I have watched the hilarious videos made by folks who obviously have never been inside a true Temple of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. There is no threats to bodily harm for talking about what goes on inside, there is only the asking not to speak about things that are too sacred for folks who don't (or won't ) understand. Even then it is asked, not comanded, so everyone that has been inside has the freewill to talk about it or not.
How old are these "little girls" you speak of?
Where do you come up with this stuff?
Good post Patrick and Rob! I was thinking the same thing. While I hold no truck with organized religions myself, one has to admire him for doing what he strongly believes in as well as his wish to stay to help when so many others are leaving. Have some compassion people!
Mormon character -- A woman can only enter heaven when her husband utters her 'Temple' name.
Truthout indeed!
The 'Temple' name is the same for all women married in the Temple that day..
Truthout
PLEASE Leave the Japanese alone -- They Already have a wining formula: ONE Language, ONE Culture AND Secure Boarders! -- WE COULD LEARN FROM THEM?
PS --AS TO A "State" SPONSORED RELIGION - They already have one of those also!
Hanks Common Sense: One language? Languages I heard while walking to work yesterday (in descending order of popularity): Japanese, Korean, Chinese, English. One culture? Does this mean anything? There is much more diversity in Japan than I experienced in my 25 years in the US. Secure borders? Yes, that's right. State sponsored religion? Nope. None in Japan. Most people have no religion whatsoever, actually.
In the days after the first giant earthquake I spent much time (several hours per day) walking through Tokyo past shrines, temples, churches, and one mosque and a synagogue. The only place I saw any religious activity was at the Tokyo Baptist Church on Sunday; there were a lot of non-Asian people milling about (after services, I surmise). While temples and shrines are crowded at various traditional festival times, religion has very little to do with everyday life here.
There are Mormon missionaries in my neighborhood; they're less noxious than others (including those who canvas for Asian religions), and the kid mentioned in the article has got himself out of the way. I don't see any great harm.
to kari huss its pocatello idaho check your facts nimrod
Bitch please...she was referring to the CELESTIAL Pocatello, NOT the Idaho Pocatello. Check YOUR facts. LMFAO:)
We could learn from the Japanese. In our Country, take New Orleans for instance, our citizens looted, shot each other, the police abandoned their posts, and the list goes on. In Japan they are sharing what little food and water they have with each other. That comes from a communal belief structure, where as ours is based on a "every man for himself" structure.
We did learn in our country, the floods in the midwest the next year or two people didn't loot and shoot, they helped and shared.
I coach a lot of mormon kids and most have pretty good values. At the same time I am utterly opposed to missionary work and proselytizing by any religious tradition. The arrogance, hubris, and self-righteousness is profound. If they want to do good then they DO good...work for the Peace Corp, Red Cross, or the = and leave their bibles and fairy tale beliefs at home. All told Missionaries have done more harm and brought more destruction than this disaster in Japan.
Where was YOUR GOD when 20,000 people were dying? Oh wait, I guess he was in LYBIA helping out the rebels there. Uh huh. God gets no stars from me. Good going God.
Nancy,
Do you realize that if no one died, no matter how it happens, we would have used up alot more resources. The thought is mindboggling how many people would have to share the Earth and her stuff. People have been dying in horrid disasters throughout the ages, at that time those particular humans, animals, and other creatures nedded to make room for the next group. This sounds very callous. I'm sorry for that. Look on this as part of the circle of life. God was there with the 20,000, just as He is here with all of us who are suffering for the loss of life, just as He was there when 9/11 happened, just as He is always and forever with those who believe in Him and with those who do not. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God cares for each and everyone of us mortals even if we don't care about Him.
Catbirdkirby, and, yes, if you or I were dead it would use up a lot more resources, and I'm sure my family and friends would be comforted knowing I had died to "make room for the next group."
Sorry, but your comment was beyond callous. Nearly everyone I have spoken to here in Japan has remarked that they were annoyed at all the pious "our prayers are with you" by monotheists outside of Japan, but no one said they'd heard of someone saying it was a case of get out of the way so someone else can have your food and so forth. You'll be a lot more help if you keep quiet with the smug comments, stand aside, and let people here deal with our troubles in helpful ways. You can also donate money to the Red Cross.
This comment was really more infuriating than idiots I've heard saying "Japan deserved it because of Pearl Harbor [or the Korean annexation or Nanking]."
The fact that you think "God loves us" is just your opinion. Prove it.
The fact that you don't think God loves us is just your opinion. What evidence do you have that there is no God? What evidence do you have that we came to be without any assistance outside ourselves?
Can you prove that a long series of random events resulted in what and where we are? I'd love to see that. Perhaps you can start by explaining how a single cell can multiply to millions, with different textures appearances and functions. How is it that 35,000 or so tiny hairs in the ear vibrate at varying frequencies so that one can hear?
If this life is all there is, then I think a case could be made that God is grossly unfair. But I don't think you can make that case. I don't think you can prove that we didn't exist in some form before now, or that we suddenly turn off and cease to exist in some form after we die.
But here someone that maybe you could try to convince:
Let me tell you a bit about him.
A. Scott Howe has a PhD in Architecture from the University of Michigan, and a second PhD in Industrial and Manufacturing Systems Engineering from Hong Kong University, focusing on self-assembling structures and modular robotic construction systems.
Dr. Howe served as a faculty member at the University of Oregon for three years, and at Hong Kong University for six years. He has extensive experience creating curriculum, chairing peer-reviewed conferences, and organizing special workshops, in both domestic and overseas programs. He has served as a licensed practicing architect emphasizing modular compact buildings, habitats, and deployable structures, and has twenty-one years’ experience engineering robotic construction systems with significant skills in configuration, structures, and hands-on hardware assembly. Dr. Howe has ten years’ experience living and working in Japan on building design, kit-of-parts modular building systems, and automated construction research with Kajima Corporation, Shimizu, and Hazama. He is widely published in journals, conferences, and has contributed to book projects as editor and chapter contributor. Selected projects and publications can be viewed on his webpage:
Dr. Howe is currently located at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) as a Senior Systems Engineer in the Mission Systems Concepts Section, Exploration Systems Concepts group. He currently serves in the NASA Exploration Mission Systems Office (EMSO) on the Habitation Team; as Design Integration Lead for the NASA Habitat Demonstration Unit (HDU) project; and as a member of the All-Terrain Hex-Limbed Extra-Terrestrial Explorer (ATHLETE) robotic mobility system development team at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. Dr. Howe has extensive experience on site supporting field analog and prototype studies including NASA Desert Research and Technology Studies (D-RATS).
You can find Scott at a site called "Mormon Scholars Testify." You can google it. Bet ya won't.
JM,
I would just like to point out that before the earthquake and ensuing tsunami, Patrick was proselytizing in Japan. However, in the wake of this disaster, he and the other 200 or so missionaries now have service and working to help the Japanese people as utmost priorities. Patrick is a wonderful young man who loves the people he is around and will continue to serve them the best he can. He is not leaving Japan and while he is there will be helping with basic survival for the Japanese People. I for one could not be more proud of my little brother and the tenacity that he has.
Brett, I am happy that Patrick has survived. His family is ecstatic, and should be!
Chris, your in dreamland if you think there are 125K active members in Japan. The true number is closer to 25K, but the LDS church will lie, because that is what they do best. If this idiot missionary thinks God told him to just smile and "be happy" then he is either on drugs or has some mental issues..probably both. The loss of life, decstuction and total devistation is HARDLY a time to be "HAPPY". Mormonism is a CULT-
Are you ignorant, stupid or just parroting what you have heard. Webster defines a cult as "a great devotion to a person or an idea." We are devoted to Jesus Christ and the idea that He is the literal son of God. He is the foundation of our church and we do our level best to follow His example as Patrick Hildbrant is doing. The LDS church has sent tons or relief supplies to Japan to help the people to begin to rebuild their lives. And that makes us BAD people? I suggest you rearrange your prejudices.
They certainly got to see the power of God, that's for sure!
What a vile, despicable creature! His "mission" is nothing but an attempt to destroy another's culture by spreading the lies of his crazy cult. Kick him out of Japan the first chance you've got! As if the Japanese don't have enough troubles right now, they have to deal with roaches like him crawling around.
100% CORRECT!
Great that Patrick was spared, But...
too bad that He's in one of the 2 Largest groups
that Oppose The LORD Jesus today,
Namely the Mormons & the Jehovah Witnesses!
:0(
get your facts right, mormons or latter day saints believe in God the eternal father, his son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.
I feel so befuddled when people seem so violently disdainful of my church. Tradition and wrong information, maybe? Patrick sounds young and sweet. What he may yet lack in experience and articulation, he certainly seems to make up for in faith and willingness to work. At 20 he has become bi-lingual, travelled to a distant land, survived unimaginable disaster, and now wants to help in the recovery. I have to think that beats sitting in his parents' basement playing xBox. Give him time -- he's certainly on his way to wisdom and experience.
So you WERENT told in Temple that you would be hunted down and disemboweled if you ever revealed the 'Secrets?
So, you weren't told that the only way for you to enter heaven is if your husband speaks your 'temple name?'
TRUTHOUT
Don't be dumb. Make sense.
Annie, okay, he's a good kid, now keep him from knocking on my door 'cuz I don't want to hear it!!!!
Annie, swell Patrick learned a foreign language, how nice. What is the saying about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions?
Annie, I'm with you on this one. People are so ignorant about the LDS church. They need to hate something now a days and so they choose to hate God. I can't but help feel sad for the way our society has gone about our Savior to begin with.. but to have people so degrade God by their anger toward him and anyone who is trying to live a Christ-Like life just makes me beyond words. People don't understand that the LDS church has done more service to people around the world during times of disaster to help with the neccessities of survival. That organizations are set into place to care for those in need, whether members or not. That, on many occasions, the church humanitarian efforts were there long before anyone else could get there and the list goes on. The definition of a Christian is "one who believes that Jesus was the Messiah and the Son of God" For anyone who has ever attended any of our services or activities, they know that Jesus is the foundation of our church, not Joseph Smith. Christ is the corner stone. Mormon is NOT our name.. but The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. How blinded people are by their own pride and desire to drag anything good down. Sounds like Sodom and Gommorah all over doesn't it.
Actually in Sodom and Gommorah it was a rompin' good time with orgies and all for days and days, but I digress.
When you say the church has done lots of humanitarian service, it has, you're right. It donated 10 million dollars to the Asian Tsunami victims in 2005.
However, the church is also spending upwards of 3 billion dollars on condos and a shopping mall in downtown Salt Lake City.
3 billion > 10 million
Priorities.
...and the 20 million or so spent on the campaign against gay marriage in California.
Like you say, priorities.
What a sad commentary on humanity. The original article was about the horrible events suffered by the Japanese people, not about what religion they or those who are making attempts to help them are or should be. For crying out loud, give us a rest and take you soap boxes to a more appropriate venue.
BIG NERD.