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By F. Brinley Bruton, msnbc.com
LONDON - Polemical filmmaker Michael Moore seems in no doubt that dark forces are behind the rape and sexual molestation accusations leveled against WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange in Sweden.
“Governments and corporations go after individuals … they go after people with this kind of lie and smear,” Moore told MSNBC’s Countdown with Keith Olbermann. “This is all a bunch of hooey as far as I’m concerned.”
But while many WikiLeaks supporters contend that powerful international interests are misusing Sweden’s sterling feminist credentials to stifle the man at the helm of the organization, the debate in the country has taken a dramatically different direction.
Many in Sweden reject claims that Assange, who appeared in a London court Tuesday, is the victim of a U.S.-led conspiracy. Instead, the country has been gripped by a very public and often explicit discussion about intimate behavior and relationships. The case has even made some question whether feminism has been taken too far in this supposed bastion of gender equality.
Assange is wanted in Sweden for questioning after two women accused him of rape, sexual molestation and unlawful coercion. Stockholm is seeking his extradition from Britain although he has not been charged with any crime.
Feminism is a mainstream concept in Sweden and the country has among the toughest sex crime laws in the world. In fact, lawyers have been known to joke that a man must get written permission before having sex.
“WikiLeaks has vocal supporters (in Sweden), who by the way I am one,” says prominent feminist and journalist Johanna Koljonen, whose blog posts helped kick-off a fervent discussion when she revealed in intimate detail an experience that echoed the allegations against Assange.
But her support for the organization has nothing to do with whether Assange is guilty or not under Swedish law, she added. However, his case has reminded her of an encounter that left her uncomfortable.
“I woke up in a sexual situation with a partner with whom I has just a few hours earlier had consensual sex on the condition that we use a condom,” she wrote.
“It is often very clear what a rape is and what has happened, but even then we know it’s difficult for the parties to get a fair hearing in court,” Koljonen added. “Then there are the situations in which acts have been performed which may or may not be illegal, depending on the parties’ negotiation of consent. This principle makes legal situations complicated, but it is of vital importance: we should not and cannot legislate acceptable sexual practice.”
Koljonen’s blog post fed a growing discussion and soon Prata om det (#prataomdet on Twitter), or “Talk about It”, was born. The website has received more than 226,000 page views with the average user staying for seven minutes.
'Honest conversation'
The site encourages users to discuss negative sexual experiences and reveal times when “boundaries were violated.”
“Initiating an honest conversation about sex and consent is scary,” the site says. “Reactions can be cold or even hostile towards those who try. Because of this, many people hold their tongue and put a lid on their thoughts – but that doesn’t make the thoughts go away.”
In a post entitled “I’m a nice guy,” one male user posted that despite his best efforts he has not always behaved in a way he is proud of.
“I have the notion that I have a very enlightened and equal view on sex,” he wrote. “Sadly, my feelings and practical application isn’t as evolved and that hurts both myself and others close to me.”
In Sweden, the word "tjatsex" - defined by Koljonen as "nagging sex ... sex that you talked someone into having even when they didn’t feel like it" - has even entered the mainsteam.
Journalist Sonja Schwarzenberger, who has been involved with the website since the beginning, says it is a forum for women and men to safely discuss negative sexual experiences.
“Our idea was, how not to make it black and white is to say, 'here it is, this is my experience.'”
Fair trials difficult?
For weeks, the debate has dominated the airwaves and newspapers in Sweden.
But while many view the ability to discuss the ambiguous intimate issues as a positive thing, the gray area often referred to and the country’s relatively broad definition of rape alarms others.
Pelle Billing, a M.D. who lectures and writes on gender and men's issues, worries that Sweden’s rape and domestic violence laws make it difficult for men to get a fair trial.
He cites a quote by the lawyer for Assange’s accusers, who went to the police for advice before deciding to file charges.
“Women who are assaulted don't always define it as that,” said lawyer Claes Borgstrom, who is the Swedish Social Democratic Party’s spokesman on gender equality. “It's a big problem in our society and it can be difficult to assess what has happened if you are not a lawyer."
“So how is man supposed to know what the boundaries are if the women don’t know?” Billing asks. According to him, feminism in Sweden has stopped being about equal rights and has begun to infringe on men’s rights.
So Billing spends little time worrying whether the case against Assange is the result of U.S. pressure on Sweden and instead focuses on whether Swedish courts uphold the presumption of innocence for men accused of rape and domestic violence.
Billing was excoriated in public for discussing his beliefs and the Assange case on a leading current affairs program.
'Without shame'
Even some Swedes who call themselves feminists concede that sexual violence and rape laws are sometimes applied unfairly.
“It is important in this Julian Assange case to understand the situation,” says Per Samuelson, a defense lawyer who focuses on defending men accused of rape. “Everyone (around the world) is shouting that Julian Assange is innocent (but) people in Sweden think otherwise because they tend to believe the women in over 90 percent of the cases.”
Comments like these no doubt trouble Assange and his defense team. But they are in stark contrast to the views espoused by vocal WikiLeaks supporters such as prominent Canadian feminist Naomi Klein.
“Rape is being used in the Assange prosecution in the same way that women's freedom was used to invade Afghanistan. Wake up!" she said of the case against him.
But for many in Sweden, the Assange case has crystallized important issues around personal boundaries, sexuality and the law.
As journalist Koljonen says: “How can judges and juries and the media be expected to speak honestly and think coolly about things we can’t even say to ourselves without shame?”
Leave a Comment:
Women need to take some responsibility for what happens in a consensual sex situation. Women need to realize how hard it is for men to just turn it off, and if they have reservations women need to put a halt to things before they even start. Any woman who has regrets after sex, even if she said yes, can say she was raped just to make herself feel better.
A woman who has consented with conditions should not be permitted to file "rape" charges against a man she thinks went too far. Her right, in a situation such as this, is to not give him any again. Rape is a crime that carries long prison time. She should not have that kind of power simply because he didn't do it "the right way". She consented and that is the threshold. Intimate relationships today require a legal team be consulted before consummation can occur. Personally, I think the whole world has gone crazy on this subject.
It's only a matter of time now before men will be accused of rape if it wasn't fast enough, or long enough, or deep enough, or a little to the right enough.
Dhampton...Okay...Hypothetical scenario. A woman agrees to have sex with a guy. Things are going along and he decides he likes "rough" sex and never mentioned it to her. She ends up dead from rough sex....crime or not?
What you are describing is clearly murder, not rape. If I had a dollar for every time a women said to me "harder" during sex, or "pull my hair" or a dozen other things that cannot be printed here, I'd be pretty well off.
Looking for a law that favors the rights of a woman over that of a male? The courts will not allow a male to use the defense that he was intoxicated during a sexual encounter and therefore is not reponsible for his behavior. However if the woman becomes intoxicated she may use the excuse that she did not consent to the act and was consequently assaulted.
Good Grief! While condom usage has benefits - the concept of a piece of plastic being the sole qualifier is assnine. What if the condom actually breaks? Or, god forbid, it leaks?? NOW whose FAULT is it?
The last time I checked, eggs nor sperm are able to magically fly through the air and unite. So before you offer up your egg or sperm - you need to "get it" that the act you are performing is not solely about feeling good for a few minutes. The act itself is about reproduction. BOTH parties are giving and receiving! Eggs and sperms are harmless when separated.
That "Free Love" attitude of the 60's went out with HIV, herpes, syph, gono, and a host of other STD's.
Tired of Extremists...Okay...let's not convict a guy who rapes and kills your mother, sister, daughter, aunt or cousin. Boys will be boys. Most educated women expect a man to be responsible. Obviously, for some men that's like a sentence of hard labor for life. It's called grow up?
Tired of Extremists: oh yes, indeed, I am. Particularly the whining, paranoid kind who make up slur words because their standard vocabulary is so limited. As to the value of your opinion as to the supposed inferiority women relegate you to, well, who am I to argue. Let me instead quote Einstein for you (he was a man, a very smart one) :
"Two things are finite. The universe and human stupidity. And I'm not so sure about the universe."
I guess this is largely irrelevant issue. Sweden, just like a lot of European countries with too much of social protection for immigrants has a negative growth of its native population with a very large Muslim minority... Another 50 years and the discussion in Sweden will be what is the best way to honor-kill your daughter fo looking at a guy on the street.
A real story here: it was in France - my parents travelled with my sister by car going to Spain. They stoped at a small hotel for the night. The hotel was run by an Egiptian Arab. He asked my dad how he lies the room that he proposed. My dad said: "It look fine, let me just ask my daughter if she is going to like it." The Arab hotel owner came unglued over the fact that my dad is going to ask my sister anything instead of making the decision himself. All of his anti-European and anti-women frustrations came out at once and he was very agressive and unpleasant. Of course my parents left without taking the room.
This is the future of Europe with the religion of peace.
Totally absurd! After a woman accuses a man of rape the woman is then put on trial. Her background and reputation are dragged through the mud as if she committed the crime. Michael Moore is again full of crap and a sexist male to boot. Any man that actually believes that a woman has a legal advantage in the legal system hasn't experienced the process of being ridiculed for being assaulted or watched another woman stigmatized by the police for being a victim.
So you suggest we take every woman that cries rape at her word? When a man is accused of rape his reputation is being dragged through the mud as well. He has a right to defend himself because women can be liars, just like men.
Westward...If you daughter cries rape, don't you dare take her word.
I would believe her, but I wouldn't deny the accused the right to defend himself, which is what you seem to support. My daughter is emotionally stable and tough, she is not a hysterical or overly emotional (like some here). With support from her family she would get through anything a defense lawyer can throw at her.
Westwest...I support truth, justice and the American way when it is honest. Everyone has a right to a trial by a jury of their peers. The problem with Assange is that he doesn't want to face a jury much less the system of justice in Sweden. That's why he's wrong.
By the way, for the record? It wasn't a pointed attack on your own daughter. It was meant generically. Most fathers are the reason girls stay as pure as the driven snow. Fathers often don't have a true handle on how important they are to their daughters. My father died when I was very young. Girls need a father as much as boys. Just my opinion.
Westwest: No one is suggesting he not have his day in court. What you don't get is that the statistics tell us that your "emotionally stable" daughter, as strong as you think she is, would probably not tell if she were (god forbid) in this situation. Next time you want to believe all women make this stuff up, think about her. Consider she lives in the real world, not the one you've created.
Wow..looks like we need to have a conversation as well.
Wow - the whole enchilada is on parade in this thread: militant feminism, reverse feminism, money and sex, power and sex, gender hate, sex and the law, sex and the male agenda, the female agenda, glass ceilings, sex and war rape as a political policy tool, as an element of warfare...
All good to know. Time for a history lesson babies:
In the Orinoco delta were many tribes, the Arawaks and the Caribs were the main ones. Carib men did not have families. They lived apart from the women. They regularly raided the Awarawaks for territory and especially for fertile women – whom they took as concubines. They lived so much apart that the women - whose population was continually increased by captured, raped and impregnated women - began to form a separate culture from the men and to speak a different language - evolved from the languages of the captured, enslaved women. Eventually, the sexes could not communicate except on a basic level.
The tribes moved into the Caribbean – the Arawaks fleeing and the Caribs pursuing to kill the men and take their women. According to legend, the women began to resist. They set up a separate society - some say on Monserrat – They armed themselves and killed the Caribs when they arrived to rape them - at first surreptitiously with knives as the men slept and then openly. So the legend goes, their strength was inferior but their strategy so superior that the men were outsmarted on every raid. Finally, so the story goes, the women allowed the men to visit for three months of the year and when lust was put temporarily to rest, the men were banished until the following year.
Allegorically, this is where we're headed today. Separate camps. Periodic orgies with women in control. Bring it on, I say.
What happened to the Caribs and Arawaks in the Caribbean? The Spanish arrived at the turn of the 13th century, enslaved them, and killed them all.
There is no point in discussing an emotional issue such as this. So gentlemen accept the fact that we are all misogynistic women beating bastards which sprung from the Hub's of Hell and who's only purpose on earth is to take out the garbage and lawn maintenance.
RB...Not true at all. I have a deep respect for the younger generation of men. They actually do try to be part of their families. Not just some hunk of humanity who comes home from work and his day's work is done. These younger guys take kids to the doctor, dentist, shopping and take a real part in their kids lives. I hope the younger women appreciate this and don't just take advantage of their man's good nature. Today's younger man is far easier to work with because they are not as desensitized to gender. It always surprises me how the younger guys don't notice the gender of one employee from another.
@ewent, I am sorry you have a lot of pent up rage from your past. My father and his friends are all 60+ and they do plenty of chores, have since I can remember. Some of them cook, but not all. Their relationships with their wives (while I guess not perfect because when is anything perfect, right?) are based on compromise and respect.
This idea of yours that all older males are slobbering chauvinists is ridiculous. Or that women have to be power-hungry ball-busters - whose stereotyping there, lol? Some of them are, as are some of the younger generation. However, that disrespect is often extended to other males as well, those they consider less powerful than themselves. If you would look closely at those people you would see there is almost more of a detachment. It is a minority over the last 60 years that specifically target and exclude women. The "old geezers" stereotype that was developed decades ago... well those guys are all dead. Relax.
Oh my RB, surely you can't be THAT over sensitive.
mlomb banned, smearing all women and celebrating the Giffords shooting. Bad all around.
The tone of some of the women in this discussion is bitter and hateful. If you marry a loser that abuses or ignores you, it does not mean all men are evil, nor does it mean every time a woman cries rape or abuse she is telling the truth. Women are as capable of being liars, cheats, self-centered, egotistical @!$%#s as men.
In my opinion women are more vindictive than men in general, which is what the evidence in the Assange case points at. These women made no claim of rape until they found that Assange was two-timing them. You can question his morals, the same way I can question the morals of these women who went to bed with a man they had met just hours before, but I see no evidence of rape in the statements of these two women.
mlomb, in my allegory, represents the Spanish.
What do you expect from a country and region that allows and condones beastiality along with other perverted sexual practices banned or deemed destructive since time immortal!
hell yes it has gone too far, there and here! the feminization of the US is destroying our society, Abortion, single parents, no parents, who's parents, sexless sex, petri-dish ho's etc.
Of course it has gone too far ONLY when a liberal lefty has his nuts in the fire, if he were a conservative he would be strung up in public by women.
Has feminism gone to far? Sure has. Feminism is no longer about equal rights but now about how females can get more privileges and advantages over males.
As a (tomboy) female myself, I find feminism is turning out to be a joke. Feminists insist men and women are equal, when we really aren't. Men are more masculine and logical while women tend to wear their emotions outside more and try to work towards a better future for everyone. Feminists wanted women to have the same rights as men...well, women don't sign a draft when they turn 18, now do they? I also don't like how some women are not held responsible for their actions. Having more privledges is unfair, and I'd like fairness between us. Femenists no longer seem to strive for equality, but for superiority.
All I ask is women are TREATED equally, and if we are to have equal rights, then women should also sign a draft, along with many other things that are expected of men. Women are and can be just as capable as men, but some men insist we remain below their feet. I want to be a forensic technician and an artist on the side, but I've already been told by one old man that I'm a talentless, stupid woman who should stay in the kitchen and leave man jobs for the men. So much for trying to do good in the world. I'd be doing it a disservice if I stayed in the kitchen, as my cooking is terrible and can probably kill.
User47....Oh Gee and who taught us that one? What's the matter? When the shoe is on the other foot, you guys start crying "foul"? Since the dawn of time men ruled the earth, ignoring there was another gender in existence. Course, there is one thing you guys can do to tame this so-called feminist beast....stop allowing females to be educated. That way, you can have some dumb, exploitable female to do all the dirty work and provide all the sex you need. Why not just admit that in the back of every guy's mind, he dreams of defiling 30 virgins and be done with it.
So... it is payback time? How... superior of you. Doesn't do much for your argument, ewent.
Great post collaredcrow. It's great to see woman posting something of substance rather than simply attacking all men. The only thing I disagree with is that I wouldn't force women to sign the draft. I'm not a fan of the draft in any case.
Men and women were not intended to be physically equal. If that was the case, we'd have the same physiological pattern. What most women want is for men to play fair and not force women into playing their games.
More talk of fairness ewent? I would hate to be you if you got a taste of this 'fairness' you speak of.
Fair would be given someone like collared the opportunity she deserves. Based on your other posts, I'm not sure what you mean by fair, but that's my take on it.
@ Baron:
*Late Reply*
Well, it is true that most women would not want to sign the draft (as I probably I wouldn't either when it comes down to it), but the same can be said of men. It's a type of "fairness" I wanted to point out because it's something feminists do not want women to have to do, even though they insist we are equal and must have equality. It's a tool often used by men in many arguments against womens rights and equality, saying it is unfair we are excluded from the draft. I'm no fan of the draft for anyone, either, but it's one of the harsher "fairnesses" out there that women sometimes fail to recognize when they argue about equality. I want women to realize there are not only pros but also cons when it comes to equality. Being equal isn't as nice as feminists try to put it as.
Collared Crow: No one who uses the term "Tomboy" is a feminist, then or now (just how old ARE you???) (By the way, there is no draft, remember? For men either. And women are ENLISTING voluntarily to serve in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Don't belittle them.)
AP, all male U.S. citizens, and male aliens living in the U.S., who are 18 through 25, are required to register with Selective Service. The penalty for not doing so is a fine of up to $250,000 and up to 5 years in prison. Also, no one is belittling the service of women in the military.
usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/draft2.htm
Based on your comments here I'm starting to think you may be ewent in disguise. Take a break from hating on men and realize that only a small percentage of us have any issue with women having equal rights.
AP:
To answer some of your questions, I AM a Tomboy, I've grown up between brothers, and am 17 and going into college to earn my degree as a forensic technician and artist/novelist (and as I have said in earlier posts, there are people who've told me off for trying to go to college to do a "man's" job). I am not trying to belittle anyone, in fact, I find that all people who willingly go to war, whether woman or man, are very brave and worthy of high regard and respect. I'm just saying that some women would not want to be forced to sign the draft when they turn 18, as men are. As Baron has said, there is a draft, so please do your research before making such an assumption.
Keep welcoming mooselum immigrants, Sweden. Those feminist laws will soon be obsolete.
That is what happened when you let @!$%# take over. I’m a dick! We’re reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks. The rest are either pussies or @!$%#. Pussies don’t like dicks because pussies get @!$%# by dicks. But dicks also @!$%# @!$%#. @!$%# who wanna @!$%# on everything, pussies may think they can deal with @!$%# their way but the only thing that can @!$%# an @!$%# is a dick with balls. The problem with dicks is that sometimes they @!$%# too much or @!$%# when it isn’t appropriate and it takes a pussy to show them that but sometimes pussies get full of @!$%#. That they become @!$%# themselves because pussies are only an inch and a half away from an @!$%#, I don’t know much in this crazy, crazy world but I do know if you don’t let us @!$%# these @!$%# we are going to have our dicks and our pussies all cover in @!$%#.
WTF???? Was there an intelligent point in there somewhere?
You're a dick, you say? Ok. kind of hard to argue with that.
That is what happened when you let a**hole take over. I’m a dick! We’re reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks. The rest are either pussies or as*hole. Pussies don’t like dicks because pussies get f**ck by dicks but dicks also f**ck as*hole. As*hole who wanna sh*t on everything, pussies may think they can deal with as*hole their way but the only thing that can f*ck an as*hole is a dick with balls. The problem with dicks is that sometimes they f*ck too much or f*ck when it isn’t appropriate and it takes a pussy to show them that but sometimes pussies get full of sh*t. That they become as*hole themselves because pussies are only an inch and a half away from an as*hole, I don’t know much in this crazy, crazy world but I do know if you don’t let us f*ck these as*hole we are going to have our dicks and our pussies all cover in sh*t.
Yeesh...the highly intelligent porno mouth.
In my youth I heard a very wise man say: Males spend 9 months trying to get out of a woman and then the rest of their life trying to get back in. He ment it as a Joke against his gender but as most "jokes" there is a word of truth. Rape is a crime of violence, degradement and power no matter if it is against a male or a female. It is feared by all genders - so much so that it is a listed determent from prision. To cry rape is wrong, to be a victum is demoralizing, de-humanizing and also wrong. Every human has the right despite age, or gender to say NO, even following ingestion of mood altering substances. Unprotected sex in this time of sexual diseases is wrong. Laws are on the books to protect those who are physically unable to protect themselves. What people do in their private lives is THEIR buisness but the key word there is THEIR. When the stronger learn that their strength is to PROTECT the weaker not to take what they want when they want it - laws will be necessary. Saying that someone should not go to prison because they had unprotected sex is equilivant to saying that there is no responsibility for your actions. Yes it is a shame that responsibility has to be mandated but any activity that places in jepordy the life (either with dangerous disease or un-wanted pregnancy) of another person is a responsibility. Feminism is truly not the issue here "humanism" is.
Gee Debra -
You don't differentiate whether anyone got pregnant or caught any disease from the unprotected sex. Why should someone go to prison if nobody got hurt in any way? This is absurd. What is the person going to prison responsible for? NOT hurting anyone?
The original law in this country was "Common Law" meaning someone had to show that they were harmed in some way. If someone has consensual unprotected sex and nobody gets pregnant or catches anything, where is the crime?
Also, there are condoms for women. Hookers use them. I'd venture to say that more men catch STDs from women than visa versa. I know that's true in my case! Why aren't women tried and sent to prison in Sweden for having unprotected sex, why do the men bear 100% of the responsibility? That's a double standard if there ever was one!
Ewent - "I do keep men in the kitchen when I feed them and on occasion when I feel up to it...in the bedroom."
Obviously those really "lucky" men have never read any of your posts.......they put chemical castration to shame.
"When I feel up to it" says it all. Thanks (not really) for being so considerate and occasionally providing the "service." For all your bluster about men your statement basically portrays you as nothing more than a tool or device for the facilitation of male orgasm. Yep, sounds about right to me.
BanzaiBill...Hurts to be exploited as a male doesn't it? Boo hoo. What sounds right to you comes from millions of years of male evolution. Tilting back to the days of Neanderthals are we? The men I allow into my life are men. 100% pure male. They don't have to prove it with bullying, bossy overbearing attitudes, snarky criticisms or snarling like beasts in the wild. Life's too short for me to tolerate that BS. Men who are confident with their masculinity have to prove nothing to no one. Those who fear latent homosexuality are the ones who push the envelope with women.
As for "service"...isn't that what most wives do? If they didn't, the Gravy Train would end with a bang. I don't know who you think you are kidding but it isn't a savvy woman like me. Most married women are deadly tired from holding down a job, taking care of kids, the house and anything that they can't get Mr. Overworked and Underpaid to do. Then, they have to go to bed and become Pamela Anderson to a Neanderthal? If you can get it when you want, why should male supremacy be the only law in town? Most women are smart enough to know men hate the word "NO" in any form. Hey...if you guys are dumb enough to not see the problems with that...what do you want women to do?
And who deserves your selfish deeds? Ever heard of the golden rule?
You are a bitch. Whining about feminism and treating men differently.
Alan...I decide who deserves me. Don't you? The golden rule? Right...That surely explains rape doesn't it? Do unto others before they do unto you and make sure you prove how powerful you are. That be what you had in mind? Yes...I'm a bitch when a man tries to play games with me. I have a golden rule....Don't waste time on players. Like that one? I have another Golden Rule "Stick it to guys before they stick it to you." Thank my half brother Frank for teaching me that one. See? I learn lots and lots of wonderful stuff from you guys. I don't whine. Never have....never will. I also don't expect a braindead male to have much to offer. Oh...there goes Golden Rule No. 3.
Sorry, this depressingly all male world hasn't changed the rebellious me.
Oh you've whined the whole time. You whine about right for women, yet live obviously double standards.
You are selfish. You speak of women equality but it's Ewent superiority which is what you live for. You care nothing but for yourself.
And thanks for judging. I'm a certified genius and IT. Skilled in all forms of Windows, OSx, Ubuntu Linux, Slackware, Red Hat, and Fedora.
Do try and attack when you have a clue my dear.
Alan...I don't whine about the rights of women. You are misreading my intent. I demand rights for women. See the difference? I am no more superior than any other woman and I know I am not inferior to any man. Your male supremacy is showing big time. Do try and attack when you have a clue my darling. And you can drop the condescending attitude. Doesn't work with me.
I don't doubt you are a genius. You do realize there is a fine line between genius and insanity don't you?
I don't really care what works with you or doesn't. You say you demand rights for women, yet you talk of revenge against men.
You talk of me speaking of male superiority, yet you ignore that you were calling men braindead (Which yes, people would take to refer to them).
Do you listen to what you say? Or has the entire idea of revenge mutated you into something that you don't even recognize?
Alan, alan...real "certified geniuses'" don't go around claiming they're "certified genius'" in the midst of doing a pretty good imitation of a mysogenist idiot. A wee suggestion...you might want to talk to someone about those anger issues.
Women are quite simply, what we have allowed them to become.
Or, should it be, what we forced them to become.
It is interesting, My wife has never worked out side of the home, except for short periods of time, when because she wanted to, she filled in for a lady, who is my long time secretary.
I say interesting, because there is a tendency among what I refer to as "feminists" to be quite patronizing of her. Most of them, never see it coming, until after she has gutted them and allegorically, of course, left them for dead.
One of her really penetrating remarks, to those women who continue to talk about the glass ceiling is, "perhaps, you need to take another look at your qualifications. your qualifications.
I can't speak for any one else of course, But, I have 38 years and a lot of money invested in my business.
When considering some one for employment the last consideration is gender.
I ask for and get resumes that tell me nothing about your gender, or family situation, I am hiring for a position, require prospective candidates to be aware of the possibilities as far as hours, unexpected trips etc..
Wilburn...And if the shoe was on the other foot? And your wife was the one with the money? And you were a househusband? Feminists don't look down on your wife nor do they have any axe to grind with her. She chose her marriage to you. Your attitude is more than a little condescending. As for that glass ceiling, there are a number of highly educated women with great skills who have been kept from that boardroom for no other reason than gender. That you think otherwise proves a small business mentality. You "let" your wife take over when your secretary left? Gee...how benevolent. Smart women would see that as you exploiting a less expensive substitute for your secretary. No big deal...secretaries are all just working for "extra" money right?
@ ewent
I plan to be a forensic technician, but I've already been told off by some men that insist women belong in the kitchen and should not do a "man's job". I am very much qualified for the job, more so than many other people, women and men alike. I wish this discrimination would stop. We are no longer in the dark ages. In fact, I'm sure some animals think higher of their female counterparts than some human males do.
Collared, if you've been told something like that then it is absolutely wrong. In this day and age there really are no jobs that are gender specific and you should have every opportunity to do what you want. Please be aware that those men who said those things are not representative of men as a whole.
Collared Crow...I'm semi-retired. Happily. So you can guess how old I am. That said, let me give you a valuable lesson regarding men...they detest smart women. Oh sure. At first, it's that game they love...Not the kill, the thrill of the chase...so they do what they must to test your intelligence. When they find you are in fact smarter than them, you are no longer just a cute little toy. And God help you if you are both attractive and intelligent. To men, that's not possible.
Cute little story. One guy I used to work with a long time ago asked me to help him make sales calls. I had no experience at all in sales. But, I wanted to help him make his monthly quota. He was at first thrilled. Until, the sales prospects became clients and asked to speak to me instead of him. All hell broke loose. I was good enough to help him make his sales quota, but how dare I become a valid sales person, right?
Two things all women need to do to maintain their validity. Don't do for men what they can do for themselves and never but never become predictable. You may as well hand them an arsenal of weapons they'll fire at you at every chance.
And guess what ewent? I've known women who hated other women because they were smarter. You make way too many generalizations for things that can be said for all people.
(ewent) Most men do not detest smart women, they detest mean ones.
Wilburn: You've "allowed" me to become what, exactly? Funny, I don't remember asking you for permission.
Gee, what a shock. Your wife, (who has adorably never worked outside the home) doubts those women who do face any sort of barrier and tries to belittle those who disagree. Just charming.
I run a business as well. It would never dawn on me to congratulate myself for seeking the best people for my business regardless of gender. I would have thought that was good business. But then, heck, I am apparantly not a self-made woman, but someone who was, how did you put that, "allowed" to become something?
Honestly man. If my son showed this kind of arrogance and disrespect for women, he'd be grounded. (and then his father would wring his neck.)
Michael Moore is a fat pig. His insight is like his colon. It might be deep but is full of @!$%#. Keep working people up Mr. Moore......it only deepens your pocket. Isn't that what it's all about? Assange is a weasel. I do hope he spends life in prison.
At the root of the problem is our historical inability to have an intelligent, thoughtful, respectful, adult dialogue about issues that arise between the genders. All human beings are entitled to equal rights with the others, so there is no need to attack any movement on behalf of any group of people who have been denied equal status, including women's rights, racial civil rights, gay rights, or anything else. It sounds like the Swedish-run website is on the right track in terms of promoting dialogue on the real issues. Some of the posters on this thread seem not to have been taught respect for others, and that is at the heart of their gender problems. Human beings are not toys or chattels and do not exist merely for the gratification of others. If Assange acted as he has been portrayed, then he is responsible; if his accusers are lying in some way, then they are responsible. It's quite simple, really.
Patty in Maryland - Your post is right on, right up to the last statement, "Its quite simple, really." I disagree. It would be hard hard hard to prove Assange's guilt with sufficient certainty to warrant a meaningful sentence. (A meaningful sentence is one that clearly demonstrates the crime isn't worth the trouble.) Congratulations, though, on being one of the most clearheaded posters I've run across in days. Namaste!
In a situation of he said - she said (in this particular case) how does one make any judgment about what happened? In addition, didn't he live with one of these women for a week afterward? This is a very weird case and I, personally, don't believe it rises to the level of a "crime". How can anyone prove a crime?
Some of the threads under this subject have gone off the deep end. Really, all men and women want and deserve is equal respect.
Thank you, Wordweevil, for your kind words. Namaste!
Both of you are right in saying that I over-simplified the situation. What I meant was that the overall principle was simple. Factually speaking, these cases never are. No he-said, he-said, or he-said, she-said cases are ever simple to solve. Even if the case involves something besides sex, like a contract or something. That's why lawyers and judges exist.
I just wish that we pursue dialogue in an atmosphere of mutual respect. So much of the relations between genders are described in terms of conflict and competition. But what people really need to do, particularly if they want to live together, have sex together, and raise children together, is make up their minds to cooperate with each other to achieve their common goal.
Blessings to both of you. It's snowing now, and maybe time to hit the Washington highways before we all go slip-sliddin' away.
wow, the amount of male bashing on this thread is over the top, but not at all surprising considering the "we hate men" club America has turned into. Women hit men, women have sex with children, women even rob banks ... and get treated with kid gloves by the system. A man serves an average sentence of THREE TIMES longer for the SAME crime a woman commits. Women who cheat on their spouse get the "she was lonely, so it justifies it" treatment while men are called pigs, dogs, rats, snakes, etc. Heck, women who falsely accuse men of rape are hardly ever prosecuted, and when they are, they pay a small fine!
Even on TV, Dad's are always the morons and the moms are always saints.
I'm sorry, but I live in the REAL world, where women are just as likely to get violent and cheat... and many more women are learning how to cry rape or abuse as a way to gain leverage over a man... with little or consequences for their fraud.
hay ladies, you want equality, prove it...start demanding your "right" to be drafted, ok?
Amen Jim. I would love to see more women give their lives for freedom as men have over the centuries. Or even in the past 2 decades. Female talk about "women sufferage" but manage to totaly forget that it is males that mostly made the sacrifices. It is males that do the more dangerous/unhealthy work to help run the nation. How many women miners do we have compared to males? How many female construction workers build our roads, bridges, or buildings to create our businesses?
On the domestic front...I cant tell you how many MEN that I know DO take care of the children, daycare, diapers, reading, dance classes..soccer etc. Many Many men nowadays work their full time jobs AND also do the child rearing. Oh and then mow the lawn, paint the house, do the sh*t work around the house, including the tough jobs...compare that to the amount of women that do the traditional male work around the house....again a very very small percentage.
ya feminism ...I am women tough, strong, independant, ...until things get difficult.
Why is it that men are so opposed to women who try to do the things that Jim and User47 suggested, like serving in the armed forces and working construction? Please understand that your fellow males provide the most vocal opposition to women attempting to do the things that you complain that we don't do, and it is your fellow males who refuse to accept women as their colleagues in these situations, like serving as cops, firefighters, or military. Which way do you want it? Don't whipsaw people. Don't put them in the middle of a no-win situation.
As an aside, on the construction issue: many years ago I talked to a construction foreman while having a beer at a local bar. He said that he would never hire a woman because he did once, and she didn't work out and he had to fire her. I asked him how many people he had fired over the years, and he said something in the 30-40 range. I asked him why he continued to hire men because so many had not worked out that he surely must have lost faith in males. He had no answer.
I am not opposed to any women doing any job. I just dont understand now that we have equality why more women are not taking the "tough jobs" like construction or the military. I served in the Marines. I do recall that some women did not have to do the dirty work like us males had to. I distinctly recall one woman who remained in her air-conditioned van while we all worked maintenance outside in the extreme heat. We were all Marines... but she was different somehow because ...? She had a vagina ? So we ended up doing our work plus hers ...
Its about qualifications and ability first not gender. Feminism seems to put females first and foremost before qualifications and ability...performance.
I agree with you about qualifications and ability being the key rather than gender, but I think both sexes but their gender first and have seen lesser qualified men be picked over more qualified women. But my larger point is that we who are women many times end up in the middle of a catfight between men and then both of those sides blame us! One side blames us for not doing "the dirty work" (which we actually do a lot of), and the other side blames us and doesn't want to work with us if we do show up to do "the dirty work." Actually, I'm for a universal draft. I almost signed up for the military (my aunt was a lifer), but did not do so for reasons that had nothing to do with my gender. And remember, Dr. Ruth was a sniper before she became a sex therapist.
@ewent - NAMBLA is a sick group but also is an all male group so why would a woman be apart of it. Why don't you ask about all the female teachers who have been caught over the years sleeping with male students? 99% of the time rape of a male by a female is never reported because of how society views males and how people would treat a guy if he was raped as less of a "man". I don't know what generation you are from but in my generation (30ish) the truly bizzarre and freaky things sexually I have heard of have come from my female friends.
example, when a woman doesn't like a man for some reason some cry rape and then the man goes to prison because the judicial sytem favors the woman. the judge is prabably a woman- no help for the man, when people get a divorce the men get screwed and have to loose almost everything. just like the new show on tv where moms dress up little boys with makeup and clothes for a beauty pagent. feminising little boys, i'm glad my parents raised me up the old faschion way. where a man is a man. woman need to stay out of politics, most woman favor socialism and communism- this is america, i'll be damded before someone tells me what to do and how to live my life. stop the feminism of the american male, otherwise they're wont be men left we'll all be gay. i'm just stating a fact and i dont dislike woman, so sorry if this affends you.